What if Seifer passed his SeeD exam?

[neo_rufus]

As you all probably notice by now, I enjoy thinking of how a Final Fantasy game wouuld be if a major event never occurred, for example what if Seifer passed his SeeD exam in the beginning of Final Fantasy 8. Did you ever wonder how much FF8 would have changed if Seifer was to become a SeeD? Well let's take a look of the possible changes. Since

Comments

[summonerluna]

Another long comment ahead, ye be warned :p

I...kind of agree. The reason Seifer didn't pass the exam was because of his problems with authority, and the fact that, despite being a remarkable warrior, he was determined to prove himself capable of creating his own path without anybody's guidance. Therefore, in order for him to have passed the SeeD exam, there would be a lot of elements of his personality that would've had to diffuse during his years at Garden, if they had ever been there at all. Seifer, afterall, had tried for the exam and failed before the time of gameplay. With that said...were Seifer diciplined enough to make it into SeeD, there's a chance he would have been there before Squall...and thus--would he and Rinoa even have met in the first place? Seifer could easily have been dispatched somewhere else that prevented him from being [insert wherever he met Rinoa here because I can't remember], and the two of them wouldn't have had a romantic history.

Also, had they *not* have had a history, she may never have gotten Garden to send SeeDs to help the Owls, and she probably never would have had anything to do with the group unless by chance when the SeeDs were eventually dispatched to Deling City, she could have run into them there and joined them when she realized they were fighting for the same cause she was. But I'll touch on that point again in a minute.

But maybe it could have been previous failure that caused Seifer to shape up, and he passed the exam with Squall. If only x number of candidates could make it in, then either Nida, Selphie, or Zell would have been out--and honestly, even though we don't get to see Nida very much, I believe that Zell would have been cut, just because he was the more immature of the group and probably could have used another year to grow up. So Zell would have been out of the picture pretty much all together...

Which brings me to what Squall's fate might have been if the group dispatched to Timber had been Seifer, Squall, Selphie, and Quistis. I think you are 100% correct that Seifer and Rinoa would have resumed their relationship...but I'm not sure it would have lasted. Afterall...Seifer would already have achieved his dream of becoming a SeeD...so I think he would have had to then deal with, once the Sorceress took power, whether he wanted to fulfill his romantic dream next. I always felt like that dream meant far more to Seifer than his dream of becoming a SeeD, since the only thing that held him back at Garden was the fact that he didn't follow direction well--something that, had his goal been *that* imporant to him, he could have changed. And if Seifer had gone ahead and followed the Sorceress, than SeeD or no SeeD, he would have left the group--and Rinoa. Alternately, had he chosen to remain with Rinoa, it would have been the result of giving up his romantic dream which definitely would have bred a great deal of resentment towards her. Plus it was only in that battle with Matron that Rinoa became a Sorceress, which would have meant Seifer would've had to *directly* fight Edea himself--so he would have directly have to choose between Rinoa and his romantic dream. Maybe his love for Rinoa would have been strong enough to oppose Edea--but that was something very important to him and I'm not sure he could have done it.

As for Squall--he was never the type to go against his mission, which was the main difference between him and Seifer. I don't think he would've tried to challenge Edea alone unless so instructed. Also, Squall really didn't like Rinoa at first, and I think if she and Seifer were involved, Squall would've had no motivation to try and win her for himself--and without a growing attachment, if it did play out so that they fought Edea and Rinoa inherited her powers and became comatose, that Squall might not have had a very strong reaction to it. (And even though I love the Squinoa pairing, on this topic, I would kind of hope that Quistis would finally succeed in gaining Squall's affection :p)

[summonerluna]

(apparently I really like this topic because I almost doubled the maximum word count...)

All that being said though...I think, ultimately, the plot would have worked out as it did in-game even if Seifer *had* become a SeeD, because the game is set in a time loop. It was through his relationship with Rinoa that Squall was able to become the person that he was, and the person who was able to journey into the future and take on Ultimecia--that person *had* to be Squall, and not Seifer, because it was Squall who returned to the Orphanage and gave Edea the idea for the Gardens. And after the final battle, the reason Squall was able to find his way to the Orphanage, was because of the promise he and Rinoa made, to return to that spot if they were ever separated--it was that promise, and that memory, that Squall held onto when he was running through compressed time, eventually ending up in Edea's courtyard.

And to go back to the possibility that Rinoa and Seifer hadn't met beforehand and thus she never got involved with SeeD, she never would have become a Sorceress herself--which, if the theory you posted previously that Rinoa is Ultimecia--the game could not have happened. Without Ultimecia, the battle never would have happened, Squall couldn't have gone back in time, and without that, Edea never would have started SeeD.

Finally, there's the Loires :p And I'm not really sure how I'm going to have this make sense because I still am struggling to even understand the *canon* elements of Laguna and Ellone...but do you think Ellone would have possessed Seifer if he had been in the party? And would Seifer have responded the way that Squall did? Also...if you believe Laguna to be Squall's father, and we already know Julia is Rinoa's mother, there's almost an element of destiny around Squall and Rinoa's relationship.

I really think I need to replay the game before I can fully discuss this, because now that I'm thinking about...there are so many questions about this that I have! This is an excellent topic...

So I guess...I think, with Seifer becoming a SeeD, *everything* about the world of the game would have changed, since due to the very nature of time loops, the entire plot is hinged upon events happening in a certain way--a butterfly effect sort of thing. If Seifer had become a SeeD, then it would have affected several immediate plot elements, which in turn would have affected several *more* and it would have spiralled out until perhaps there was no Ultimecia--or maybe instead of taking Squall's place, Seifer simply would have just assumed the spot of whomever he replaced as a SeeD inductee--be it Zell, Nida, or Selphie. But that would still leave a gap on the side opposing Squall's--or maybe Zell, Nida, or Selphie would in turn have come to take Seifer's place--whether their intentions started out badly or not--I can see Zell, more than Squall, deciding to try and take on Edea himself, and of course once he did, Ultimecia could have possessed him, and all of Zell's actions from that point on would have mirrored Seifer's in-game actions, minus, of course, the history with Rinoa.

VIII is definitely not what I would consider my favorite Final Fantasy, but what I did love about it, is the plot element of the time loop--because it does tie things together in such a way, that when you start to think about the "what-ifs," it just propells a line of thought that keeps going, and ultimately, loops around on itself. Which can raise other questions about this game--and I think, fun other questions about the other games. (For instance, something I think would make an *excellent* discussion topic along the same lines of this one with regard to VII: What would have happened if Zack hadn't died when Shin-Ra attacked him and Cloud?)

They're just...there are so many *endless* possibilities to it, and it really reminds of how connected every single story element in the game is--and how amazing the writers at Squeenix are for coming up with things like this :)

[summonerluna]

It's funny, I don't really picture Seifer being a very romantic type either...but it does seem like whatever he did with Rinoa really worked...and afterall, it was through her connection with him that she was able to get Garden to help her cause, which I think shows, despite how he presents himself, that he is capable of going out of his way for somebody else.

And what you said before...I guess it is possible that Squall could had an unexpected reaction to Rinoa the way he did with Seifer...but I feel that a lot of his shock from hearing that Seifer had been executed was that despite being rivals, he considered Seifer to be such an equal--they challenged each other, but also respected each other, and I think it was kind of a reminder to Squall that even though he's a student he's still not invincible. But I guess he could have flipped over Rinoa as well. Good point :)

I think this question has so many answers...but I think the beauty of trying to answer it, is just proof of one of the themes of VIII, like I said before in that everything is connected...I think if Seifer had become a SeeD it would have made a very good story...just a very different one since everything would have changed :)

[neo_rufus]

That was very touching of Seifer to help Rinoa out like that. Just look how he done it, I mean he did a very nice thing for somebody, and he did it in a way that nobody would find out. I suppose he was afraid of how his image as the "tough guy" would be affected if he did it in the open, lol. Seifer is such a good guy. :D

I loved how you summed up your view on how Squall looked at Seifer's execution. I can see why you said that he realized that Seifer is not invincible because I remember a conversation Squall and Seifer had in Dollet. I'll try and quote it to the best I can.

Squall: "I like a good challenge, even if they fight dirty like you."

Seifer: “You’ll thank me for it someday."

Squall: "Thanks to you, I feel I can take on anybody or anything."

Those two did have a very interesting bond with each other. Just look how they made each other feel...I find it very deep.

That would have been an awesome story if Seifer were to pass. Now I wish that they made a game that's about Seifer's point of view, lol. That would be so cool. I intend to update the community again; I've been gone from the Easter holiday, so it is good to be back. It's time for all of us to have another awesome debate topic again. :)

[neo_rufus]

I will update the community today*. I think I have a very good topic to discuss. I'll save that topic for friday, and post another topic I have in mind today. :)

[summonerluna]

Oh yeah I wasn't even thinking of that quote...but I think that's very definitive of Squall and Seifer's relationship :)

Corrections

[neo_rufus]

I’m happy to hear you like this topic.

I keep overlooking how sensitive this game’s time line is. It does make sense that SeeD would have never been created because if it was Seifer who defeated Ultimecia, and he would have never returned to the orphanage to warn Edea. Then again, it raises another interesting question. Do you think that Rinoa would have told Seifer to meet him in a certain place if he and Rinoa were to be separated? Oh, and will Seifer even keep that promise. Part of me doubts that he would keep that promise because Seifer doesn’t seem like the kind to believe in the love dovey kind of thing, then again…it’s hard to say because we* have no idea how well he treats the ladies. But judging from how he helped the Forest Owls, and left Rinoa totally in love, I would say he is good at it. Still, I am with you when you say that it had to be Squall that had to beat Ultimecia.

Wow, that is so true. No Ultimecia, even if it wasn’t Rinoa, would in the end equal no SeeD. That totally messes up the whole story, lol. My only thought on that is, if there was no Ultimcia, and no SeeD, then there would probably be another Sorceress out there, other then Edea, who might be a possible threat to the world. But who would stop her? That’s the question. I don’t think the game ever explained where Seifer and Squall got their gunblades from, so I suppose they wouldn’t even be warriors if* that was the case. Wow, I love this topic even more.

Good question* you asked. I would say “yes,” Ellone would most likely still possessed* Seifer, but I don’t think he would have reacted the same way as Squall did. I say this because I recall how frighten, angry, and freaked out when Edea first approached him and began possessing him. He would probably taken it far less serious then* Squall did, you know pretend that it was a mere dream, and not talk to anybody about it. I could be wrong, but I think when it comes to possessing, Seifer is far more sensitive compared to Squall.

Well your more then welcome to post anymore of your awesome theories. :)

The same thing with me, though Final Fantasy 8 isn’t my favorite Final Fantasy, I still greatly appreciate the sensitive plot to the game, and the endless questions that can be created from it. As for the Zack situation for Final Fantasy 7, that is a pretty interesting question. I will make an entry about that sometime. Unless somebody brings it up before me, but I will defiantly mention that. Thanks for posting that was some awesome points you made.

[neo_rufus]

Well you know I’m always up for your long comments. :)

That’s what’s ironic about his whole failure, great warrior, but horrible attitude. But if he were to change, then he probably wouldn’t have been as popular to Final Fantasy 8 fans as he is today, but I would have still wished he shaped up and passed is exam. I see what you mean though, if Seifer were to pass, then he might not have met Rinoa during the summer. I still believe that they would have met, but the relationship they had might have either been postponed, or would have never happened. Maybe it was the actual timing of their meeting which created their relationship.

That is so true, even if Seifer were to become a member of SeeD, there is a huge chance that he would have perused his romantic dream. To be honest, I never really did consider which dream Seifer thought of as more important, I am very glad you brought that point up. Not to mention you support that statement when you mention that Seifer could have made the necessary adjustments to pass his SeeD exam if he was that determined. I mean all he had to do was follow orders, and pretend like he actually liked them, had he would have been just fine. But what makes this part of the debate interesting is the thought of Rinoa and Seifer remaining as a couple. It would be very interesting to see what Seifer would have chosen between his romantic dream and Rinoa. Maybe he would have chosen Rinoa, it is very hard to say, like you said, but I think the combine emotional strength of Rinoa, Fujin and Raijin would have convinced Seifer ti say with the group. I mean I can’t get over how she shaped Squall’s life. But, I am still with your theory all the way.

I suppose Squall would have never decided to get with Rinoa since he had no feelings for her, like you said. I just look back at the emotional outburst Squall had about Seifer's death, and I thought something like that would ahve occured as he felt left out when he looks at Seifer and Rinoa's relationship. Your point makes more sense though. :)