Babs and Bruce Beyond and silly internet memes
Hey all! Just so you know (cuz I know it's keeping you up at night) I am still going to do a super mega review of Batgirl #15 and a little thing for Red Robin. Just been busy!
In the meantime...
So, I finally have gotten around to watching Batman Beyond the series thanks to Justin letting me borrow his DVDs. I got to "A touch of Currare", the Babs episode in Season 1. As you can expect, epic ranting followed. I posted it on tumblr, but the lengthy length is more appropriate for LJ, so reproduced here along with replies to some of people's responses.
And it was a Babs episode! Fuck yeah old Babs! Fuck yeah Comissioner Barbara Gordon. And she was all awesome, protecting her husband and appearing like a ninja in the Batcave and being snarky and clearly Terry automatically loved her because who wouldn’t it’s Babs!
Only then we got to the part where Babs and Bruce had dated and slept together and all that lovely junk in the past.
And I knew about this fuckup but I didn’t expect it to be in this episode so I was like AGH.
It’s even worse than I thought.
Look, Babs and Bruce would just never get together. Even at her oldest, there’s an age difference and authority thing going on. Babs clearly sees Bruce as her crazy uncle who’s always trying to order her around that she never listens to. She knows too much about him to want to sleep with him! DCAU Bruce isn’t nearly as much as a dick as comics!Bruce, but he’s still jerkish and emotionally damaged enough that Babs would never think of pursuing a relationship with him. Bruce Wayne is an emotionally repressed socialite who has a thing for hot villianesses. Babs is a compassionate woman who actively seeks out nice guys (and girls-like what everyone says about you and Supergirl and then there’s Dinah in comicsverse) who craves emotional support hence why she is bff’s with Dick Grayson, Kara In-ze and Dinah Lance. She could be around Bruce two minutes and know the relationship would never work. Aside from the fact of him being an uncle figure to her, Bruce is her Dad’s FRIEND. How awkward is that!
But people make bad decisions. Babs is not exempt, and obviously the relationship didn’t work out for the very reasons I stated. What I really have a problem with is that even in the DCAU Bruce has to bang everyone he meets because no woman can resist the Bat. Selina and Talia are one thing, but the the DCAU adds DIANA and fucking LOIS LANE as women who love him…fine. I can deal. But then BARBARA GORDON gets added to it? His partner? Why can’t they just have a brother-sister/uncle-neice relationship? Why does every male-female relationship have to come down- and in this case be RUINED by- a sexual component? Barbara Gordon should never be reduced to a notch on the Bat-Bedpost, okay.
But even aside from that. We come to my biggest problem. The absolute dealbreaker.
As we can recall, in the DCAU as in comics, Babs had a long term relationship with Dick Grayson.
Dick Grayson is Bruce’s adopted son.
So basically Babs slept with her ex-boyfriend’s father.
what the fuck what the fuck who even thought this was a remotely good idea to have Barbara Gordon do that? Who thought it was good idea to have BRUCE SLEEP WITH HIS SON’S EX GIRLFRIEND? THIS MAKES HIM JUST AS BIG A DICK IF NOT BIGGER THAN COMICS!BRUCE.
And it’s not like Dick was okay with this or they talked it out with him or anything! No, we are EXPLICITLY TOLD IN THE EPISODE that it hurt him deeply. This is also likely the reason he never talked to Bruce or Babs again! AND I CANNOT BLAME HIM AT ALL.
Take a gander at this dialogue.
Babs: Dick wanted to get out of the shadow of the Bat. He was upset when I decided to stay behind with Bruce.
Terry: As his partner?
Babs shakes her head
Terry: As his girlfriend?
Babs smiles.
WHAT THE FUCK IS BABS SMILING ABOUT. SHE UPSET A REALLY NICE GUY WHO SHE USED TO DATE- SHE REJECTED COMING WITH HIM (this part is fine) SO SHE COULD SLEEP WITH HIS DAD. (this is not fine)
Barbara Gordon would never ever hurt Dick like that. NEVER. to even suggest she would is a severe disservice to the character.
What is more, BRUCE would never hurt Dick like that. Even the asshole we know and (sometimes) love from the comics would never sleep with his son’s ex and completely alienate him like that, KNOWING IT UPSETS HIM. It would make him the worst father ever! So why on earth does the episode treat this as totally okay?
I never thought I’d say it, but fuck you Batman Beyond people. I will keep watching my DVDs and enjoying the show cuz hey, I knew this was coming and I still like the show, but…how dare you screw up my girl Barbara like that. It’s a feminist fail (the woman is the homewrecker! She can’t just be friends with Batman, we can’t just have her come in as an awesome former ally who got fed up with Bruce, we have to add this skeevy romance aspect! She’ll sleep with your dad and break your heart!) but mostly a characterization fail. And you screwed up Dick and Bruce too! Scew you.
That said, I totally loved Babs taking down that punk with a batarang. Babs and Terry team up! And Terry gushing about how much he likes a respects Babs and would never cross her to Bruce. Terry, you are so right and I love you.
It was a good episode otherwise, starring my fave girl as a kickass old police commisioner lady. Why’d they have to ruin it?
On the whole DCAU Bruce/Babs thing:
No, it definitely doesn't work in the comics, but I thought it worked well enough there, considering Dick's actions.
When I watched "Sins of the Father" last time, I was struck by how much of a crappy boyfriend Dick really was to Babs, just from the sheer fact that it took him THAT LONG to even consider telling her the truth, and that, from Bruce's actions when Babs confronts him, he probably wouldn't have had a problem with it. It really struck me that Dick really wasn't ready to commit at the time, was pissed off at Bruce because he was still a teenager, and found a perfect scapegoat to leave.
After that, you have these Babs working more closely with Bruce, since he does prefer working with a partner, who actually trusted her with all his secrets. It makes sense within the context of the story, I think.
Again, not something I want to see in the comics, but from the way things went, I can certainly see why the two happened in that context.
Ehhh still have a few posts left.
However a shitty boyfriend Dick was, it does not change the fact that sleeping with your ex’s Dad is fucked up. Especially if you know that your ex (who you are friends with despite his many shortcomings) finds it upsetting.
It does not change the fact that it is MAJORLY fucked up on Bruce’s end, because THIS IS HIS SON’S EX GIRLFRIEND.
It also doesn’t change the fact that even in the animated series, Bruce and Babs had a sort of uncle-niece relationship, that he was friends with her DAD before he even knew her, that Babs would know better than to get involved with Bruce and wouldn’t be attracted to him due to circumstances anyway, and that this whole thing just seems like “a male and a female can’t be partners and friends without fucking each other- especially if it’s Batman”.
So yeah, I’m not saying how Dick treated Babs (and Bruce! Man, didn’t think I’d ever take Bruce's side in a Dick-Bruce argument, but other than the kid thing and taking Dick for granted, he didn’t really do that much wrong in that ep) in SotF and later didn’t suck. I like comics Dick a bit better than animated!Dick for that reason (disregarding shit like the NW Annual). But he was her friend, and never a horrible monster, and this is his father and ex-girlfriend. There is no excuse.
I remember reading a thing once where Paul Dini said this was intentionally incredibly fucked up. I mean, BBeyond is an incredibly fun shiny show… Until you stop to think about it for more than a second. There’s all this weird, creepy stuff around the edges- I mean, there’s Return of the Joker, but even that asks more questions than it answers. Dick just… disappears. Tim, well, we know what happens to Tim… Sort of. Babs grows up to be this incredibly bitter woman who wants Terry off the scene as soon as possible. Bruce retired after he pulled a gun on someone. Alfred is dead, Lucius is dead, Bruce has been sitting alone for like a decade until Terry shows up. In BTAS, Harvey Dent was Bruce’s former best friend- but in RotJ, Bruce slices the head clean off a Two-Face training dummy (and we never find out what happened there).
I guess what I’m saying is yes, that is weird and wrong and creepy, but there are a lot of weird and wrong and creepy things going on in that, given that it is allegedly a kids’ cartoon.
Look, I can accept that and all. But…but…Babs. It’s Babs! *lip trembles* And look, it wouldn’t be so bad if Terry or someONE called Bruce out on it, the way he called Bruce out on driving everyone away, or anyone acted like what they did was wrong at all. And I’m just kind of bitter that Babs big fuckup just hassss to be sex with Bruce. Because it couldn’t not be something romance related! She is a girl! And really, of all these awful things, this really seems among the worst and the most OOC. I can see Bruce being an emotional pariah, I can see everyone being all bitter…I can’t see Bruce screwing around on his son or Babs entering such a weird relationship and hurting her friend like that…in BTAS, she’s the well adjusted one!
And if you take the “Batwoman” movie, he was in a relationship with Babs WHILE HE STILL HAD ANOTHER 10 YR OLD SON (and the scene of them flirting there was just so awkward…the relationship squicks me on just a kneejerk level). Awesome way to show Tim what he should expect in the future, Bruce!
I get that it’s supposed to be fucked up, though they could have made that clearer. But that’s just too fucked up for me, you know? I have my limit.
And yeah, BB is incredibly depressing as a future for beloved characters. That’s the biggest problem I have with it. I like to think it’s just one of possible futures and there’s one where everyone’s happy with cupcakes, but JLU sorta screws with that. *sigh*. Whhyyy…
So, there's that. Also, who wants to see me categorize my favorite characters in D&D posters despite having never played it? I did this last year out of immense boredom, but never posted it. But now I posted it for the scans_daily thing!
SOTHERE.
I know Oracle isn't actually chaotic good, just wanted to change it up when I realized EVERY HERO I LIKE is undeniably Neutral. Wow, her boob is really malformed in that picture, isn't it- the quote is paraphrased, quite a few of these are just from memory.
Can't believe I used a TKJ quote.
So there you go! Epically long post.
In the meantime...
So, I finally have gotten around to watching Batman Beyond the series thanks to Justin letting me borrow his DVDs. I got to "A touch of Currare", the Babs episode in Season 1. As you can expect, epic ranting followed. I posted it on tumblr, but the lengthy length is more appropriate for LJ, so reproduced here along with replies to some of people's responses.
And it was a Babs episode! Fuck yeah old Babs! Fuck yeah Comissioner Barbara Gordon. And she was all awesome, protecting her husband and appearing like a ninja in the Batcave and being snarky and clearly Terry automatically loved her because who wouldn’t it’s Babs!
Only then we got to the part where Babs and Bruce had dated and slept together and all that lovely junk in the past.
And I knew about this fuckup but I didn’t expect it to be in this episode so I was like AGH.
It’s even worse than I thought.
Look, Babs and Bruce would just never get together. Even at her oldest, there’s an age difference and authority thing going on. Babs clearly sees Bruce as her crazy uncle who’s always trying to order her around that she never listens to. She knows too much about him to want to sleep with him! DCAU Bruce isn’t nearly as much as a dick as comics!Bruce, but he’s still jerkish and emotionally damaged enough that Babs would never think of pursuing a relationship with him. Bruce Wayne is an emotionally repressed socialite who has a thing for hot villianesses. Babs is a compassionate woman who actively seeks out nice guys (and girls-like what everyone says about you and Supergirl and then there’s Dinah in comicsverse) who craves emotional support hence why she is bff’s with Dick Grayson, Kara In-ze and Dinah Lance. She could be around Bruce two minutes and know the relationship would never work. Aside from the fact of him being an uncle figure to her, Bruce is her Dad’s FRIEND. How awkward is that!
But people make bad decisions. Babs is not exempt, and obviously the relationship didn’t work out for the very reasons I stated. What I really have a problem with is that even in the DCAU Bruce has to bang everyone he meets because no woman can resist the Bat. Selina and Talia are one thing, but the the DCAU adds DIANA and fucking LOIS LANE as women who love him…fine. I can deal. But then BARBARA GORDON gets added to it? His partner? Why can’t they just have a brother-sister/uncle-neice relationship? Why does every male-female relationship have to come down- and in this case be RUINED by- a sexual component? Barbara Gordon should never be reduced to a notch on the Bat-Bedpost, okay.
But even aside from that. We come to my biggest problem. The absolute dealbreaker.
As we can recall, in the DCAU as in comics, Babs had a long term relationship with Dick Grayson.
Dick Grayson is Bruce’s adopted son.
So basically Babs slept with her ex-boyfriend’s father.
what the fuck what the fuck who even thought this was a remotely good idea to have Barbara Gordon do that? Who thought it was good idea to have BRUCE SLEEP WITH HIS SON’S EX GIRLFRIEND? THIS MAKES HIM JUST AS BIG A DICK IF NOT BIGGER THAN COMICS!BRUCE.
And it’s not like Dick was okay with this or they talked it out with him or anything! No, we are EXPLICITLY TOLD IN THE EPISODE that it hurt him deeply. This is also likely the reason he never talked to Bruce or Babs again! AND I CANNOT BLAME HIM AT ALL.
Take a gander at this dialogue.
Babs: Dick wanted to get out of the shadow of the Bat. He was upset when I decided to stay behind with Bruce.
Terry: As his partner?
Babs shakes her head
Terry: As his girlfriend?
Babs smiles.
WHAT THE FUCK IS BABS SMILING ABOUT. SHE UPSET A REALLY NICE GUY WHO SHE USED TO DATE- SHE REJECTED COMING WITH HIM (this part is fine) SO SHE COULD SLEEP WITH HIS DAD. (this is not fine)
Barbara Gordon would never ever hurt Dick like that. NEVER. to even suggest she would is a severe disservice to the character.
What is more, BRUCE would never hurt Dick like that. Even the asshole we know and (sometimes) love from the comics would never sleep with his son’s ex and completely alienate him like that, KNOWING IT UPSETS HIM. It would make him the worst father ever! So why on earth does the episode treat this as totally okay?
I never thought I’d say it, but fuck you Batman Beyond people. I will keep watching my DVDs and enjoying the show cuz hey, I knew this was coming and I still like the show, but…how dare you screw up my girl Barbara like that. It’s a feminist fail (the woman is the homewrecker! She can’t just be friends with Batman, we can’t just have her come in as an awesome former ally who got fed up with Bruce, we have to add this skeevy romance aspect! She’ll sleep with your dad and break your heart!) but mostly a characterization fail. And you screwed up Dick and Bruce too! Scew you.
That said, I totally loved Babs taking down that punk with a batarang. Babs and Terry team up! And Terry gushing about how much he likes a respects Babs and would never cross her to Bruce. Terry, you are so right and I love you.
It was a good episode otherwise, starring my fave girl as a kickass old police commisioner lady. Why’d they have to ruin it?
On the whole DCAU Bruce/Babs thing:
No, it definitely doesn't work in the comics, but I thought it worked well enough there, considering Dick's actions.
When I watched "Sins of the Father" last time, I was struck by how much of a crappy boyfriend Dick really was to Babs, just from the sheer fact that it took him THAT LONG to even consider telling her the truth, and that, from Bruce's actions when Babs confronts him, he probably wouldn't have had a problem with it. It really struck me that Dick really wasn't ready to commit at the time, was pissed off at Bruce because he was still a teenager, and found a perfect scapegoat to leave.
After that, you have these Babs working more closely with Bruce, since he does prefer working with a partner, who actually trusted her with all his secrets. It makes sense within the context of the story, I think.
Again, not something I want to see in the comics, but from the way things went, I can certainly see why the two happened in that context.
Ehhh still have a few posts left.
However a shitty boyfriend Dick was, it does not change the fact that sleeping with your ex’s Dad is fucked up. Especially if you know that your ex (who you are friends with despite his many shortcomings) finds it upsetting.
It does not change the fact that it is MAJORLY fucked up on Bruce’s end, because THIS IS HIS SON’S EX GIRLFRIEND.
It also doesn’t change the fact that even in the animated series, Bruce and Babs had a sort of uncle-niece relationship, that he was friends with her DAD before he even knew her, that Babs would know better than to get involved with Bruce and wouldn’t be attracted to him due to circumstances anyway, and that this whole thing just seems like “a male and a female can’t be partners and friends without fucking each other- especially if it’s Batman”.
So yeah, I’m not saying how Dick treated Babs (and Bruce! Man, didn’t think I’d ever take Bruce's side in a Dick-Bruce argument, but other than the kid thing and taking Dick for granted, he didn’t really do that much wrong in that ep) in SotF and later didn’t suck. I like comics Dick a bit better than animated!Dick for that reason (disregarding shit like the NW Annual). But he was her friend, and never a horrible monster, and this is his father and ex-girlfriend. There is no excuse.
I remember reading a thing once where Paul Dini said this was intentionally incredibly fucked up. I mean, BBeyond is an incredibly fun shiny show… Until you stop to think about it for more than a second. There’s all this weird, creepy stuff around the edges- I mean, there’s Return of the Joker, but even that asks more questions than it answers. Dick just… disappears. Tim, well, we know what happens to Tim… Sort of. Babs grows up to be this incredibly bitter woman who wants Terry off the scene as soon as possible. Bruce retired after he pulled a gun on someone. Alfred is dead, Lucius is dead, Bruce has been sitting alone for like a decade until Terry shows up. In BTAS, Harvey Dent was Bruce’s former best friend- but in RotJ, Bruce slices the head clean off a Two-Face training dummy (and we never find out what happened there).
I guess what I’m saying is yes, that is weird and wrong and creepy, but there are a lot of weird and wrong and creepy things going on in that, given that it is allegedly a kids’ cartoon.
Look, I can accept that and all. But…but…Babs. It’s Babs! *lip trembles* And look, it wouldn’t be so bad if Terry or someONE called Bruce out on it, the way he called Bruce out on driving everyone away, or anyone acted like what they did was wrong at all. And I’m just kind of bitter that Babs big fuckup just hassss to be sex with Bruce. Because it couldn’t not be something romance related! She is a girl! And really, of all these awful things, this really seems among the worst and the most OOC. I can see Bruce being an emotional pariah, I can see everyone being all bitter…I can’t see Bruce screwing around on his son or Babs entering such a weird relationship and hurting her friend like that…in BTAS, she’s the well adjusted one!
And if you take the “Batwoman” movie, he was in a relationship with Babs WHILE HE STILL HAD ANOTHER 10 YR OLD SON (and the scene of them flirting there was just so awkward…the relationship squicks me on just a kneejerk level). Awesome way to show Tim what he should expect in the future, Bruce!
I get that it’s supposed to be fucked up, though they could have made that clearer. But that’s just too fucked up for me, you know? I have my limit.
And yeah, BB is incredibly depressing as a future for beloved characters. That’s the biggest problem I have with it. I like to think it’s just one of possible futures and there’s one where everyone’s happy with cupcakes, but JLU sorta screws with that. *sigh*. Whhyyy…
So, there's that. Also, who wants to see me categorize my favorite characters in D&D posters despite having never played it? I did this last year out of immense boredom, but never posted it. But now I posted it for the scans_daily thing!
SOTHERE.
I know Oracle isn't actually chaotic good, just wanted to change it up when I realized EVERY HERO I LIKE is undeniably Neutral. Wow, her boob is really malformed in that picture, isn't it- the quote is paraphrased, quite a few of these are just from memory.
Can't believe I used a TKJ quote.
So there you go! Epically long post.