Teh drama, pt 2.
So, hey, I got tagged on WFA again! (http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/) for my TEH Drama post. (Oddly enough, the put THE instead in the link. Maybe they thought I was misspelling. Or maybe the "teh" really IS a bigger issue than I thought. Oddly enough, I don't mind if they do it. Because they link me and make me feel important)
However, because of this, I feel the need to clarify a few things.
The guy who I was arguing with really did not seem to have any malice, and seemed intelligent. He also did seem like a nice guy (without a TM added).
However, we have differing viewpoints. Ones that differ so radically it did baffle me very much, mostly because he seemed perceptive. And I won't deny that I think he might have a case of male privilage. Whether this extends outside comics for him, I cannot say, and I hope not. It doesn't matter to me really, if Selena is objectified. It annoys me, but she's not real. What gets to me is the attitude behind it, and the likelyhood that our fanboys, writers, artists and even fangirls take that into real life.
And I loathe heated Internet debates when both sides are not receptive to one another, which is why I ran. I'm not receptive to him, because his viewpoint flat out doesn't make sense to me, and he's clearly not receptive to me, even if he says he is.
Here's his reply post to me, which is very polite, but I will point out the logical fallacies for the sake of follow up. I don't think I'll be posting on ComicBloc again, I only joined the place to pimp my Steph wiki, and Mike (who already knows about it) was the only one who replied. And ComicBloc, while I don't agree with the general attitude towards gender, does have some very devoted fans and good discussion of Blue Beetle and Wonder Woman, which I always like to see, and creators do hang around there, including Gail Simone, Sean McKeever, and Geoff Johns, so it's worth a visit. At least it isn't the hellhole DC Boards is, they generally keep it polite, if not somewhat...unreceptive to anyone who dares take their rose colored glasses off once in a while when they read a comic.
That said...
Cool! Again though, I just want to point you over to Gail Simone's run on Birds of Prey. I'm sure Ed Benes and Joe Bennet's versions of the girls would be something that may offend you, but obviously it didn't offend Gail, or she would have asked them to change it up a little bit (Could always ask her, come to think of it, she does come on these boards an awful lot. Nice lady, too). I don't generally have a problem with their artwork (I think it's stunning), but Dinah's wedgie throws me off a little.
...Yeah, me too. So female characters having wedgies does throw him? That's strange, since you think if that was the case he'd see that particular thing happens and awful lot and start to think WHY.
I have of course, read BoP and totally loved Gails run. I however, and not a fan of Benes. It's better than it is on JLA now (I like to think it was Gail's influence that made Benes ocCASIONALLY actually make the women look kickass and not give Vixen Aryan features...you know, just subconciously) though I did like Bab's hair...anyway, yes, I did have a problem with that art, but overlooked it because of the excellent writing. It annoyed me, because I shouldn't have to have ANYTHING taint my BoP experience, but there ya go.
Like I mentioned before, Gail probably praised Benes and didn't complain because she's a classy lady, who knows how to do her job, and that is to be the best writer she can. It's probably not her place to critisize the artist, even if she did have a problem. I noticed she seemed a lot more enthusiastic about Nicola Scott in her interviews than she did about Benes. She's certainly not going to tell some random fan "Oh yeah, Benes sucked"
BTW, quick aside. When I was trying to tell my cousin (who is an example in my mind, of average non-comic reading teenage girl) about how awesome BoP is and showed her "Of Like Minds", the first thing she noticed was "Wow, nice closeups of their butts." This was a relatively innocent person I'm talking about, who usually doesn't notice this sort of thing, but as someone who didn't really see comic book art a lot, that jumped out at her before anything else. The next thing she noticed was "Those boobs are like supersized bowling balls stuffed down her shirt. Do comic books ever have girls with normal boobs?"
So I stammered "Oh, but the writings so awesome you can ignore it!" She looked at me skeptically. Then I showed her Nicola Scott's issues.
"Wow, that's better! They look like they could actually exist."
Natch.
...The female lead characters are being marginalized a lot. I don't understand how you can't see that.
Because I read a good portion of comics with really strong female characters in them. A lot of my favorite heroes are women, and not because I think they're hot, but because they are down right awesome.
Well, yes, me too. I never denied there were a lot of awesome strong female characters in comics. Hm. Maybe I should have made that clearer. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem, or we should ignore it.
There are some good female solo books, but not in comparison to the sheer number of male solo books out there. I believe just comparing the relaunch of Wonder Woman and how it was handled as to how Batman and Superman have been handled...yes, they wised up and got Gail on the job, but she has a hell of a mess to deal with. Do you really believe this would have happened with Batman? I could go on with a ZILLION examples. But, you know what? I can't. It's too mind boggling.
Oh, no doubt the Wonder Woman relaunch had a lot to be desired, but hey, they put Cheetah in some clothing, you can always take that as a win. As for it happening with Batman, I want to point out how awful All Star Batman and Robin is.
1. I do not care is Cheetah wears clothes. She's supposed to be an animal like person, and fur covers her body. It's kind of weird, but doesn't automatically eqaul HAWT if done right. Also, I love the Dodson's, but the furry pants inadvertantly made it look like Cheetah had cut the crotch out of her pants, which makes less sense than wearing no clothes.
By the way, hows our new clothed Cheetah doing?
Ouch.
And clothed Cheetah is nothing compared to the disaster WW OYL was, so no, no win, thanx.
2. All Star Batman and Robin? Is selling really well. I have no idea why. But using it as an example? To show men are equally disrespected as women in comics? Doesn't work. Here let's see why.
...I feel empowered!
So I'm gonna check out of this thread. However, a lot of you, and I've seen this attitude a lot around the 'Bloc, simply seem to thing misogyny does not exist. This is also mindboggling, since do you REALLY thing Girl-Wonder would exist if there wasn't at least sort of a problem? That Mother Jones would publish an article? That there are so many feminist blogs about comics out there?
I think there are a lot of angry young women out there. There are tons of of intelligent and well spoken people who will make the argument of sexism on many issues, doesn't mean they are right, but it is how they explain something that offends them because they feel left out, or feel they aren't being properly considered. It doesn't mean that it's intentional, it might just be how people draw a character, envision a character's costume or writes how they react to certain situations. I don't think the answer to this is to start pointing fingers and start calling people misogynists.
Okay, sorry guy.
Angry young women huh?
Stephanie thinks that's pretty patronizing.
We are not all young women, for one thing. There's young men! And middle aged women! And middle aged men! And puppies! Okay, no. Not that last one. And painting someone as an "angry young woman" generally means "Oh, she'll get over it when she grows up and learns to SMILE and be HAPPY! And not ARGUE!"
I am not angry. I am ANNOYED. And TIRED. And I just want to be RESPECTED.
Okay, maybe I'm angry. But I have a right to be.
doesn't mean they are right, but it is how they explain something that offends them because they feel left out, or feel they aren't being properly considered
Okay....a lot of people feel left out...and that there feelings aren't properly considered...do you know what that means? They are being left out. And their feelings aren't being properly considered! And you should do something about it!
It doesn't mean that it's intentional, it might just be how people draw a character, envision a character's costume or writes how they react to certain situations. I don't think the answer to this is to start pointing fingers and start calling people misogynists.
Okay...I don't CARE if it isn't intentional. That makes it WORSE. I don't think he understands the definition of misogyny . It doesn't HAVE to be intentional. It's a hatred of women that is there because of out culture. And it's not going to go away if we ignore it. It is there because we ignore it.
Seems like another case of someone, in a very organized way, is basically saying "if you don't agree with me, you must be an *******," or I could believe the situation is a lot more innocent than the writer will allow herself to see. I don't believe comics are sexist, except in maybe the most extreme cases. Period.
Okay. You seemed to be saying, in a very organized way, "I refuse to listen to what these 'angry young women' have to say. "A lot more innocent than the writer will allow herself to see?" Once again, I have no idea what that means. These people are being "innocently" sexist? Once again, that just makes it worse.
PERIOD. Well, I'm glad to see you've made up your mind. While only giving me the vaguest definition why you feel that way. "Except maybe in the most extreme cases" What does that even mean? When are these extreme cases? How often do they happen? Do you just mean sometimes the sexism is so blantant you can't ignore it? Shouldn't we stop these "extreme cases" from happening?
Hey, don't be hard on yourself. Speak your mind. people will disagree with you, and sometimes you may even feel ganged up on, but don't sweat it, you handle it delicately and no one will care in the long run. Been on the Bloc over three years myself, have had tons of disagreements, it'll happen, it's cool.
But...I want people to care. I want them to listen to me.
But that was nice of him to say, anyway. Don't think I'll try this again though. Far too much effort, with no results.
And none of the girls I know like Pretty Woman.
Probably because the movie came out before you were born, and by now it's pretty dated. I just grabbed the first thing in my head that was a girl geared movie without being a total condescending prick.
...It didn't work. Not being condescending, I mean.
And Avatar isn't a comic, don't worry about that. I never said that. :/
And I don't understand why you think it's geared towards females. It's geared at everyone as far as I can see.
Oh, I really like Avatar, actually. Great show, very deep at times, fun at others. I think it's geared more for young teenagers than any one gender. it's a great show in my book
Okay, but you said it was geared more towards females...
Oh well. At least he likes it.
By the by, here's a link on WFA I wish I'd been able to post in my parting shot.
http://brokenmystic.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/the-objectification-of-women-in-graphic-novels/
I don't agree about WW not being as strong a character as Batman or Spiderman, or that that first image is objectifying even, but other than that, hammer, meet nail head.
And a girl who found herself in a similar situation as myself in the gaming community. She even has the same LJ background.
http://maladaptive.livejournal.com/633963.html?style=mine
And...that's the end of this saga. I hope.
However, because of this, I feel the need to clarify a few things.
The guy who I was arguing with really did not seem to have any malice, and seemed intelligent. He also did seem like a nice guy (without a TM added).
However, we have differing viewpoints. Ones that differ so radically it did baffle me very much, mostly because he seemed perceptive. And I won't deny that I think he might have a case of male privilage. Whether this extends outside comics for him, I cannot say, and I hope not. It doesn't matter to me really, if Selena is objectified. It annoys me, but she's not real. What gets to me is the attitude behind it, and the likelyhood that our fanboys, writers, artists and even fangirls take that into real life.
And I loathe heated Internet debates when both sides are not receptive to one another, which is why I ran. I'm not receptive to him, because his viewpoint flat out doesn't make sense to me, and he's clearly not receptive to me, even if he says he is.
Here's his reply post to me, which is very polite, but I will point out the logical fallacies for the sake of follow up. I don't think I'll be posting on ComicBloc again, I only joined the place to pimp my Steph wiki, and Mike (who already knows about it) was the only one who replied. And ComicBloc, while I don't agree with the general attitude towards gender, does have some very devoted fans and good discussion of Blue Beetle and Wonder Woman, which I always like to see, and creators do hang around there, including Gail Simone, Sean McKeever, and Geoff Johns, so it's worth a visit. At least it isn't the hellhole DC Boards is, they generally keep it polite, if not somewhat...unreceptive to anyone who dares take their rose colored glasses off once in a while when they read a comic.
That said...
Cool! Again though, I just want to point you over to Gail Simone's run on Birds of Prey. I'm sure Ed Benes and Joe Bennet's versions of the girls would be something that may offend you, but obviously it didn't offend Gail, or she would have asked them to change it up a little bit (Could always ask her, come to think of it, she does come on these boards an awful lot. Nice lady, too). I don't generally have a problem with their artwork (I think it's stunning), but Dinah's wedgie throws me off a little.
...Yeah, me too. So female characters having wedgies does throw him? That's strange, since you think if that was the case he'd see that particular thing happens and awful lot and start to think WHY.
I have of course, read BoP and totally loved Gails run. I however, and not a fan of Benes. It's better than it is on JLA now (I like to think it was Gail's influence that made Benes ocCASIONALLY actually make the women look kickass and not give Vixen Aryan features...you know, just subconciously) though I did like Bab's hair...anyway, yes, I did have a problem with that art, but overlooked it because of the excellent writing. It annoyed me, because I shouldn't have to have ANYTHING taint my BoP experience, but there ya go.
Like I mentioned before, Gail probably praised Benes and didn't complain because she's a classy lady, who knows how to do her job, and that is to be the best writer she can. It's probably not her place to critisize the artist, even if she did have a problem. I noticed she seemed a lot more enthusiastic about Nicola Scott in her interviews than she did about Benes. She's certainly not going to tell some random fan "Oh yeah, Benes sucked"
BTW, quick aside. When I was trying to tell my cousin (who is an example in my mind, of average non-comic reading teenage girl) about how awesome BoP is and showed her "Of Like Minds", the first thing she noticed was "Wow, nice closeups of their butts." This was a relatively innocent person I'm talking about, who usually doesn't notice this sort of thing, but as someone who didn't really see comic book art a lot, that jumped out at her before anything else. The next thing she noticed was "Those boobs are like supersized bowling balls stuffed down her shirt. Do comic books ever have girls with normal boobs?"
So I stammered "Oh, but the writings so awesome you can ignore it!" She looked at me skeptically. Then I showed her Nicola Scott's issues.
"Wow, that's better! They look like they could actually exist."
Natch.
...The female lead characters are being marginalized a lot. I don't understand how you can't see that.
Because I read a good portion of comics with really strong female characters in them. A lot of my favorite heroes are women, and not because I think they're hot, but because they are down right awesome.
Well, yes, me too. I never denied there were a lot of awesome strong female characters in comics. Hm. Maybe I should have made that clearer. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem, or we should ignore it.
There are some good female solo books, but not in comparison to the sheer number of male solo books out there. I believe just comparing the relaunch of Wonder Woman and how it was handled as to how Batman and Superman have been handled...yes, they wised up and got Gail on the job, but she has a hell of a mess to deal with. Do you really believe this would have happened with Batman? I could go on with a ZILLION examples. But, you know what? I can't. It's too mind boggling.
Oh, no doubt the Wonder Woman relaunch had a lot to be desired, but hey, they put Cheetah in some clothing, you can always take that as a win. As for it happening with Batman, I want to point out how awful All Star Batman and Robin is.
1. I do not care is Cheetah wears clothes. She's supposed to be an animal like person, and fur covers her body. It's kind of weird, but doesn't automatically eqaul HAWT if done right. Also, I love the Dodson's, but the furry pants inadvertantly made it look like Cheetah had cut the crotch out of her pants, which makes less sense than wearing no clothes.
By the way, hows our new clothed Cheetah doing?
Ouch.
And clothed Cheetah is nothing compared to the disaster WW OYL was, so no, no win, thanx.
2. All Star Batman and Robin? Is selling really well. I have no idea why. But using it as an example? To show men are equally disrespected as women in comics? Doesn't work. Here let's see why.
...I feel empowered!
So I'm gonna check out of this thread. However, a lot of you, and I've seen this attitude a lot around the 'Bloc, simply seem to thing misogyny does not exist. This is also mindboggling, since do you REALLY thing Girl-Wonder would exist if there wasn't at least sort of a problem? That Mother Jones would publish an article? That there are so many feminist blogs about comics out there?
I think there are a lot of angry young women out there. There are tons of of intelligent and well spoken people who will make the argument of sexism on many issues, doesn't mean they are right, but it is how they explain something that offends them because they feel left out, or feel they aren't being properly considered. It doesn't mean that it's intentional, it might just be how people draw a character, envision a character's costume or writes how they react to certain situations. I don't think the answer to this is to start pointing fingers and start calling people misogynists.
Okay, sorry guy.
Angry young women huh?
Stephanie thinks that's pretty patronizing.
We are not all young women, for one thing. There's young men! And middle aged women! And middle aged men! And puppies! Okay, no. Not that last one. And painting someone as an "angry young woman" generally means "Oh, she'll get over it when she grows up and learns to SMILE and be HAPPY! And not ARGUE!"
I am not angry. I am ANNOYED. And TIRED. And I just want to be RESPECTED.
Okay, maybe I'm angry. But I have a right to be.
doesn't mean they are right, but it is how they explain something that offends them because they feel left out, or feel they aren't being properly considered
Okay....a lot of people feel left out...and that there feelings aren't properly considered...do you know what that means? They are being left out. And their feelings aren't being properly considered! And you should do something about it!
It doesn't mean that it's intentional, it might just be how people draw a character, envision a character's costume or writes how they react to certain situations. I don't think the answer to this is to start pointing fingers and start calling people misogynists.
Okay...I don't CARE if it isn't intentional. That makes it WORSE. I don't think he understands the definition of misogyny . It doesn't HAVE to be intentional. It's a hatred of women that is there because of out culture. And it's not going to go away if we ignore it. It is there because we ignore it.
Seems like another case of someone, in a very organized way, is basically saying "if you don't agree with me, you must be an *******," or I could believe the situation is a lot more innocent than the writer will allow herself to see. I don't believe comics are sexist, except in maybe the most extreme cases. Period.
Okay. You seemed to be saying, in a very organized way, "I refuse to listen to what these 'angry young women' have to say. "A lot more innocent than the writer will allow herself to see?" Once again, I have no idea what that means. These people are being "innocently" sexist? Once again, that just makes it worse.
PERIOD. Well, I'm glad to see you've made up your mind. While only giving me the vaguest definition why you feel that way. "Except maybe in the most extreme cases" What does that even mean? When are these extreme cases? How often do they happen? Do you just mean sometimes the sexism is so blantant you can't ignore it? Shouldn't we stop these "extreme cases" from happening?
Hey, don't be hard on yourself. Speak your mind. people will disagree with you, and sometimes you may even feel ganged up on, but don't sweat it, you handle it delicately and no one will care in the long run. Been on the Bloc over three years myself, have had tons of disagreements, it'll happen, it's cool.
But...I want people to care. I want them to listen to me.
But that was nice of him to say, anyway. Don't think I'll try this again though. Far too much effort, with no results.
And none of the girls I know like Pretty Woman.
Probably because the movie came out before you were born, and by now it's pretty dated. I just grabbed the first thing in my head that was a girl geared movie without being a total condescending prick.
...It didn't work. Not being condescending, I mean.
And Avatar isn't a comic, don't worry about that. I never said that. :/
And I don't understand why you think it's geared towards females. It's geared at everyone as far as I can see.
Oh, I really like Avatar, actually. Great show, very deep at times, fun at others. I think it's geared more for young teenagers than any one gender. it's a great show in my book
Okay, but you said it was geared more towards females...
Oh well. At least he likes it.
By the by, here's a link on WFA I wish I'd been able to post in my parting shot.
http://brokenmystic.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/the-objectification-of-women-in-graphic-novels/
I don't agree about WW not being as strong a character as Batman or Spiderman, or that that first image is objectifying even, but other than that, hammer, meet nail head.
And a girl who found herself in a similar situation as myself in the gaming community. She even has the same LJ background.
http://maladaptive.livejournal.com/633963.html?style=mine
And...that's the end of this saga. I hope.