And so it continues
I so get it if you guys are sick of reading this, so I'm putting all the cr** behind the cut, so I can throw my ideas out like talking to myself or something.
I commented ad nauseum before, here is a response, highlighted in blue, my words that he quotes are italic in black
Thank you for your very interesting and persuasive arguments! I can tell
that you care very deeply about people, and that is a very good thing.
I'm sure you are an excellent friend.
Let me give you some feedback on your comments:
So, to say that homosexuality is harmful--broad sweeping
generalization.
Please see http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/facts/msm.htm. These are medical
facts, not generalizations.
There are certain risky behaviors that might be more common among the
gay male community, I'm just not convinced that it's intrinsically
connected to being gay.
Yes, AIDS is intrinsically connected to male homosexual practices. It's
hard to put this delicately, but in anal intercourse, the lining of the
anus, which is very delicate, becomes damaged and bleeds. This mix of
blood and semen is deadly. There are other exchanges of bodily fluids
that are dangerous (even normal intercourse between heterosexuals can be
so), but this is THE bad one. Really.
In any case, I'd argue that the solution to that is to really reach
out ... rather than to simply tell them to quit being gay.
There are other problems with being gay, other than the risk of HIV. Even
if you were able to have completely safe sex, it would still be a morally
wrong (among other things) to practice homosexuality.
...this is an extremely emotional topic for me...since I love and care
for my gay friends and have personally witnessed their struggles.
I know quite a lot of gay people as well. I personally know six people
who have died of AIDS, good people, all. I have seen a marriage destroyed
by a spouse who was having a homosexual affair, and I've seen some of my
best friends twisted by exposure to homosexuality. I have an estranged
homosexual relative in my immediate family.
I can say without hesitation that homosexuality has left a trail of
suffering or misery on every life I've known. (And yes, it is the
homosexuality that caused the suffering, not people's disapproval. One
doesn't get HIV even from discrimination.)
Telling kids that it's wrong to be gay has driven many young people to
suicide ... Telling kids that they can chose to be straight has led to
the misery and depression...
No, telling people that they have no choice is what leads to
depression (I have personal experience with clinical depression, too.)
Depression comes from a feeling of helplessness. Helping people realize
and actualize their ability to choose is empowering.
.. I saw how miserable he was when he was still in denial and trying
to live as a straight guy. And I know that that kind of denial can lead
to alcohol, drug abuse, suicide, and all kinds of risky behavior. It's
better that he live his own truth, but be educated about how to do that
as safely as possible.
Here is the crux of the matter. I absolutely am not judging you here, but
from your description, it sounds like you have may have decided to
abandon your friend to his "own truth" rather than confront the pain of
trying to live to a higher standard. (It's likely I'm totally way off
base here, but all I have to go on is your comments.)
"Abandon" is a strong word, I know. But when your friend decided to fight
against his weakness, he was not being in denial, he was acting
heroically. There is no harder battle than the battle for
self-control, and your friend deserves and needs your help and support to
"fight the good fight".
Ugghhh, where to even start.
First of all, for the f***ing broken record bit, yes, having anal intercourse with an infected person is very high risk, having anal intercourse with someone who might be infected (but you don't know) is pretty high risk. Having vaginal intercourse with someone who is infected is very high risk, and even more so for the woman. Much has been made of this idea that vaginal intercourse is "safer" because it supposedly involves less tearing, so therefore, less blood. This may be true, but having a secondary std in addition to HIV ups that risk astronomically, for both straight partners in vaginal intercourse. And unless anyone thinks that's unlikely to happen, I've seen studies that actually estimate that nearly half of sexually active adults in the US have herpes (most without even knowing it), gonorrhea is alarmingly prevelant, and syphillis is on the rise.
So, bottom line, if you want to be safe, use condoms. There are actually extra strong condoms recommended for anal sex, and lubricants decrease the likelihood of the condom breaking. If the condom breaks, stop immediately and replace it with a new one. Etc, etc. I'm not a high school health class, I'm just saying there are ways to be smarter.
lecture over.
Next part, this guy says essentially, even without health risks, homosexuality is morally wrong.
Well that's the honest to god point, right? We're having this debate about how healthy it is to be gay, not because homosexuality (above smoking, alcoholism, and wife-beating) is the number one health risk in this country, but because some people simply think it's wrong. They start out from the idea it's wrong and backtrack trying to build non-moral arguements for a moral stance. Have some f***ing honesty. There are tons of ways to limit all kinds of health risks, but limiting those risks are not acceptable to people who are on a moral crusade. I should know, having a moral crusade or two of my own up my sleeve. It's beside the point.
Bottom line, he thinks homosexuals are sinning, I don't. Never the two shall meet.
He goes on to offer some tragedies he has witnessed as evidence of the moral wrongness of homosexuality. I never took the first bite, so I'm just not at the table for this one, but here's an effort.
I'm really sorry that his friends and acquaintances died of AIDS. I'm really sorry that we've lost so many wonderful people to AIDS. The lucky thing about it is that we know so much more today on how to prevent infection and how to treat those infected. Steven died before we had the drug combining method. Today, many people are living longer and better with the infection. There's more I could say about that, since I fear the new treatments have led to some complacency and people have slipped back into riskier behavior. But my point was that all this that we have: ways to be safe, ways to limit risk, and new treatments, it all comes from science. There's no evidence that taking a moral stance, believing in a certain god, or worshipping at any church has ever prevented anyone from getting infected with this disease.
And lest anyone dicker with that statement, let me tell you what the words "most," "riskiest," and "statistically probable" mean. This means that if the most likely way to spread infection is from anal sex, that means some people are still getting infected from vaginal intercourse, drug use, accidental needle sticks in medical settings. I even read an article about a woman who became infected when she got sick traveling abroad and had to be treated in the local hospital in that country--some kind of accident occurred there and she became infected. If both people in a couple, straight or gay, wait until they have a firm commitment to have sex, never use iv drugs, didn't have a blood transfusion back in the day, never travelled outside the US, and never have sex with anyone but each other, then they have a very, very low risk. But how many straight people can really claim that either? And often, if women wait until marriage to have sex, they are still not safe, because they can be exposed through their husbands' behavior. This is certainly a problem in Africa where heterosexual sex is the primary way the infection is spread.
As for the marriage breaking up because the man had a homosexual affair--well surely that wouldn't have happened had a gay guy not married a straight woman in the first place.
I stand by my previous statements regarding how it can damage young people to be told they can just choose not to be gay. I've nothing more to add to that.
But how about the idea that I'm abandoning my friends and refusing to help them overcome this weakness. Uh, what world does this guy live in. First of all, the first rule of healthy psyche is to realize I only control my own actions, so even if I want to control how other people live, I just can't. Secondly back to the point about morals--I simply don't believe it's immoral, that's not part of my world view, so it doesn't apply here.
Friends tell friends all the time their opinions on things. Michael thought Sean was too old for me and it concerned him, but once he realized how much I wanted this, he let it go, because .... Well, tens of thousands of reasons. Because if you care about someone you realize how hard it can be to grasp your portion of happiness in the world, so you encourage them to reach for theirs. Sometimes pursuing your joy can make you fall flat on your face, but even that is better than spending your life up on the shelf wrapped in cotton and bubble wrap to make sure you don't get hurt. Because everyone deserves at some point to have that magic, to feel passionate for someone, to love them and feel dizzy with attraction in their presence. You should love and be loved in equal parts. And failing that, you should keep trying.
And in this discussion, I have to ask, these people saying gay people should just suppress it and marry and live straight. Where in that discussion do we take into consideration the poor straight woman married to a gay man, because even if he never has an affair and never leaves, he's also never going to get weak in the knees when she puts on a little black dress, he's never going to look at her with that look that lets her know she's the whole world to him. And the straight guy married to a gay woman (funny how gay women are hardly part of this discussion) how does he feel?
Enough.
And again I end this with the idea that if we're choosing our sexuality purely on the basis of what's healthy, lesbians enjoy excellent health. So, we should all be lesbians, purely for the low rates of disease and violence. What? You're male and don't think you can be a lesbian? Well, there's an operation for that now. After all, I'm only thinking about your physical well-being here.
Please, please don't think I was being serious there. My cup of sarcasm overflows.