Part 1 of 4 - Yeah, this post is insanely long. This comment is over 3 and a half pages in Microsoft Word, so I'm just putting it up in four parts. This could be the longest LJ post ever! VM, it's so chat-worthy.
And don't feel like your response has to be this long! I know I like to talk. So however much you want to write is fine. :-)
I looked at some spoilers. I know a lot of stuff for the first ep next season. I had quit looking by the time the stepmother actress was announced, and let me just say YAY!!! I love her! I found out by seeing her in pics with the VM cast at Comicon, and then there was the actual UPN press release to confirm it. So anyway, if you were still looking at spoilers when she was announced, I could tell you everything I know, and we could talk about it like that. Although, like you said, this isn't really the place for it so...
As far as Duncan, Logan, and the poker game goes, I really liked the last scene between the two of them at the end of that ep. Duncan apologizes, and Logan responds, "I've done plenty of other things." I love that Logan knows the type of person he has become. He doesn't act all indignent and like Duncan should be begging for his forgiveness. And then, yeah, they say they're cool. However, you're right, Duncan said what he said and there's no taking it back now. Now Logan knows how Duncan views him. And I really think that's a good thing. Logan won't listen to most people, only those he really cares about. Of course I'm sure it also had a lot to do with his mom, but after that episode Logan starts to change for the better. I think realizing how much Duncan's opinion of him had changed in a negative way must have had some positive impact on Logan. Before that, he could probably just tell himself that his actions didn't matter all that much - that he deserved to be able to be mean to people because of how much he'd been hurt.
It is interesting to me that when Logan's life got more complicated, with Aaron's affairs and stabbing and then Lynn's suicide, Logan actually became much more vulnerable - at least to the guidance counsellor and Veronica. However, he didn't show that side of himself to Duncan. And I think you're right about Duncan not knowing how to be there for Logan at that time. You're right that Duncan just wants to ignore problems and hope they go away, and when he saw Logan like that I think he decided to just let Logan handle things on his own, hoping it'd all turn out alright. Not a great solution in my opinion, but there you have it. And yeah, the other thing was that Duncan was not dealing well with having lost Lilly (he still saw her in his dream in 1.3, and he felt like she was always watching him in 1.12), so he probably didn't feel like he could adequately help Logan with through the trauma of his mom's death. Plus, there was the fact that Logan wasn't believing his mom was dead in the first place, which is something that just scared Duncan I think. He didn't know what to do with that.
I am really enjoying your posts. I definitely don't mind you making long posts, especially if you don't mind me taking my time to respond to them.
It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I liked that scene with Duncan apologizing to Logan for 'breaking up' with him too. Duncan may have been the only person other than his mom that Logan would have listened to at this point. When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it. I'm going to have to ponder this more.
It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I guess we'll try to keep it here for now. I think you know more than me, and I don't want to be any more spoiled. I guess we can just make vague references to spoilers if we feel it's necessary for whatever we're trying to say and think the other person already knows.
When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
I think the thing is that Logan was probably able to previously repress a lot of the feelings of guilt that generally come with being a bad person. Up to that point, he was able to just tell himself that he deserved to act the way he was acting. After Duncan said that, he realized that excuse was stupid. I think he started to feel a lot worse about his behavior, which is probably what brought on his willingness to share his feelings with the counsellor. In that conversation, you can really see his self-loathing coming through. I think the confrontation with Duncan tore down a wall that Logan had built up, which led to his ability to say what he said to Ms. James.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica. And from what I've seen, the change in him now is obviously most pronounced when he's with her, but around other people, he can still be a pretty big jerk. It's not like he's left his old personality behind. We just see most of the show from V's perspective, so he seems like a much better person to us, now. And I think on some level he is a better person, but at the same time, he's still sarcastic and often uses cutting remarks. Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy." I don't think Rob wants that, and obviously, it would probably make the character much less interesting. Also, his sarcasm and wit are his coping mechanisms for all the crap life throws his way, and considering the fact that life just keeps laying into him with awful thing after awful thing, I don't see him being ready to let go of those coping mechanisms anytime soon. He probably won't ever let them go. But his complex personality is what makes me, and I think a lot of other people, so incredibly fascinated with him as a character, so I guess that kind of works out well - as far as entertaining TV goes at least.
Also, I think Logan's complexity - vulnerability and ability to love mixed with sarcasm and wit - is what makes him so attractive to Veronica (aside from his looks, obviously). I think without these things, he'd be much like Duncan, and because of how much life has hardened Veronica, she needs someone she can banter with. She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I love this whole point you made. That's just really great - really insightful. I think you're probably really hitting at what was going on there. It definitely makes a lot of sense.
I think the confrontation with Duncan tore down a wall that Logan had built up, which led to his ability to say what he said to Ms. James.
Very good point. This also is what allows Veronica to remember that their relationship wasn't always so confrontational.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica.
It always leads back to V. It has to, it's her show. I wonder what would have happened if it hadn't led to Veronica. Keith still would have been able to clear Able but would Beaver have been so willing to talk to V if he hadn't had believed that Logan want to off her? Even if he had V wouldn't have had that reminder of hiding things in vents. It would have been just Duncan and Logan as suspects with Weevil as an outside chance. Aaron would have gotten away with it. So the LoVe story helped the Lilly plot along as well as give us so great scenes.
Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy."
I've been watching season one again and I found myself thinking this too. He has been shown to be a complete sweetheart to his girlfriends while still being an absolute jerk to other people. He really isn't a "good guy". He can act like one but right now it isn't his default setting.
She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
They will be fabulous together until some other aspect of their lives gets in the way. (Like suspicion of murder.)
Part 2 of 3 actually (not 2 like I said before - I really do write a lot)
I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
This is also a great point. Once Logan comes to Veronica for help, he says, resolutely, "Veronica, she's not dead." It's like he's daring her to disagree with him. You can see how much effort he's putting into everything he says to her in an effort to get her to see things from his perspective. He knows how he sounds, but he doesn't want her thinking he's crazy, too. I also just plain love that he came to her. He could have gone to any PI in town, but he goes to Veronica. Why? Because she's his last connection to the good old days. Duncan has now abandoned him in this, thinking he's nuts. And obviously Logan's other friends (such as Dick) aren't close ones. I think if he'd had close friends to support him in this, there's no way he ever would have gone to her. I mean, I love that he's hugging his coat to himself when she answers the door, too (Jason Dohring rocks, obviously - he looks SO vulnerable, yet still very defensive). He looks like he's got no one, and she's his last hope. Also, I love that Logan has the nerve to go to Veronica for help, after everything he's said/done to her. To us, her reactions track because we know she overheard the counselling session, but for him, there's no good reason that she isn't far more standoffish with him when he comes to her.
Back to what you were saying, I wish that the reason for Logan calling Duncan had been explained. I don't like that they just glossed over that, because I really can't imagine what Logan would have said to Duncan when he called. I mean, all we know is Logan informed Duncan that he was camped out in a hotel lobby in L.A., but Logan didn't tell him why. That just bugs me. What was the purpose of the call? I guess we're supposed to think Logan was just bored, but that seems odd to me. I don't think Logan would have called Duncan without a reason.
It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it.
That's definitely an interesting point. I can understand Duncan's staying out of the Lilly/Logan relationship a lot more than Lynn's not doing anything about Aaron's abuse of Logan, though. With Lilly and Logan, I can understand Duncan telling himself that he had no business prying into their relationship. I think he must have been in a terrible position, really, for a lot of that. He's stuck with his sister and his best friend fighting all the time, and I'm guessing they were very much pulling him in two different directions. Plus, even if Duncan had tried to warn Logan away from Lilly at some point, Logan falls so deeply in love that I don't think it would have mattered. Honestly, I think that if Lilly had lived, there's even still a chance that if she decided at some point she wanted Logan back, she could have gotten him, even if the Aaron/Lilly affair had blown up. I think she held great power over him. I would hope that he would never have gone back to her, and that it really was OVER, like he told V on the beach (without even knowing about Aaron/Lilly). Lilly was extremely manipulative, though, and I think in her own twisted way, she saw Logan as hers. She could take him out and play with him whenever she wanted, and then she could put him back on the shelf when she was bored. It's really morbid to say it, but I think for Logan, Lilly's death really freed him from her.
Also, now that Logan knows what led to Lilly's death, I don't know how he's going to deal with that after having had her on a pedestal for so long. This also brings up questions, of course, of whether or not Duncan and Lilly knew about the abuse. If Lilly knew, she is of course an even worse person. If she didn't know, then I find that kind of surprising, considering that Lilly and Logan were in a sexual relationship. Also, though, it's hard for me to believe Duncan and Lilly knew because I have a hard time believing they would have done nothing if they were aware that Logan was getting cigarette burns, broken noses, and belt whippings on any sort of regular basis. I suppose it's definitely possible that they just chose to ignore it since Logan did. That's just really sad.
Back to the earlier point, though, with Lynn, I have very little patience with her for not doing something about the abuse. I don't believe she was still in love with Aaron. Therefore, her reasoning for not doing something was simply her love of money and probably also her not wanting her public image dragged through the mud (hey, whaddyaknow? That's why Aaron killed Lilly). I hate that those things mattered to her more than Logan. And it's also really sad to see how much he loved his mother regardless of this.
In addition, it's interesting for me that the Fab Four were really a family for Logan, so by going to Veronica for help with his mom, it was kind of like going home in a way. And rather than kicking him out, she was willing to help because by that time she knew more about his motivations for the way he had treated her.
So that's it for this post. I'll try to get to your other responses, soon. :)
And don't feel like your response has to be this long! I know I like to talk. So however much you want to write is fine. :-)
I looked at some spoilers. I know a lot of stuff for the first ep next season. I had quit looking by the time the stepmother actress was announced, and let me just say YAY!!! I love her! I found out by seeing her in pics with the VM cast at Comicon, and then there was the actual UPN press release to confirm it. So anyway, if you were still looking at spoilers when she was announced, I could tell you everything I know, and we could talk about it like that. Although, like you said, this isn't really the place for it so...
As far as Duncan, Logan, and the poker game goes, I really liked the last scene between the two of them at the end of that ep. Duncan apologizes, and Logan responds, "I've done plenty of other things." I love that Logan knows the type of person he has become. He doesn't act all indignent and like Duncan should be begging for his forgiveness. And then, yeah, they say they're cool. However, you're right, Duncan said what he said and there's no taking it back now. Now Logan knows how Duncan views him. And I really think that's a good thing. Logan won't listen to most people, only those he really cares about. Of course I'm sure it also had a lot to do with his mom, but after that episode Logan starts to change for the better. I think realizing how much Duncan's opinion of him had changed in a negative way must have had some positive impact on Logan. Before that, he could probably just tell himself that his actions didn't matter all that much - that he deserved to be able to be mean to people because of how much he'd been hurt.
It is interesting to me that when Logan's life got more complicated, with Aaron's affairs and stabbing and then Lynn's suicide, Logan actually became much more vulnerable - at least to the guidance counsellor and Veronica. However, he didn't show that side of himself to Duncan. And I think you're right about Duncan not knowing how to be there for Logan at that time. You're right that Duncan just wants to ignore problems and hope they go away, and when he saw Logan like that I think he decided to just let Logan handle things on his own, hoping it'd all turn out alright. Not a great solution in my opinion, but there you have it. And yeah, the other thing was that Duncan was not dealing well with having lost Lilly (he still saw her in his dream in 1.3, and he felt like she was always watching him in 1.12), so he probably didn't feel like he could adequately help Logan with through the trauma of his mom's death. Plus, there was the fact that Logan wasn't believing his mom was dead in the first place, which is something that just scared Duncan I think. He didn't know what to do with that.
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It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I liked that scene with Duncan apologizing to Logan for 'breaking up' with him too. Duncan may have been the only person other than his mom that Logan would have listened to at this point. When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it. I'm going to have to ponder this more.
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It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I guess we'll try to keep it here for now. I think you know more than me, and I don't want to be any more spoiled. I guess we can just make vague references to spoilers if we feel it's necessary for whatever we're trying to say and think the other person already knows.
When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
I think the thing is that Logan was probably able to previously repress a lot of the feelings of guilt that generally come with being a bad person. Up to that point, he was able to just tell himself that he deserved to act the way he was acting. After Duncan said that, he realized that excuse was stupid. I think he started to feel a lot worse about his behavior, which is probably what brought on his willingness to share his feelings with the counsellor. In that conversation, you can really see his self-loathing coming through. I think the confrontation with Duncan tore down a wall that Logan had built up, which led to his ability to say what he said to Ms. James.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica. And from what I've seen, the change in him now is obviously most pronounced when he's with her, but around other people, he can still be a pretty big jerk. It's not like he's left his old personality behind. We just see most of the show from V's perspective, so he seems like a much better person to us, now. And I think on some level he is a better person, but at the same time, he's still sarcastic and often uses cutting remarks. Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy." I don't think Rob wants that, and obviously, it would probably make the character much less interesting. Also, his sarcasm and wit are his coping mechanisms for all the crap life throws his way, and considering the fact that life just keeps laying into him with awful thing after awful thing, I don't see him being ready to let go of those coping mechanisms anytime soon. He probably won't ever let them go. But his complex personality is what makes me, and I think a lot of other people, so incredibly fascinated with him as a character, so I guess that kind of works out well - as far as entertaining TV goes at least.
Also, I think Logan's complexity - vulnerability and ability to love mixed with sarcasm and wit - is what makes him so attractive to Veronica (aside from his looks, obviously). I think without these things, he'd be much like Duncan, and because of how much life has hardened Veronica, she needs someone she can banter with. She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I love this whole point you made. That's just really great - really insightful. I think you're probably really hitting at what was going on there. It definitely makes a lot of sense.
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Very good point. This also is what allows Veronica to remember that their relationship wasn't always so confrontational.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica.
It always leads back to V. It has to, it's her show. I wonder what would have happened if it hadn't led to Veronica. Keith still would have been able to clear Able but would Beaver have been so willing to talk to V if he hadn't had believed that Logan want to off her? Even if he had V wouldn't have had that reminder of hiding things in vents. It would have been just Duncan and Logan as suspects with Weevil as an outside chance. Aaron would have gotten away with it. So the LoVe story helped the Lilly plot along as well as give us so great scenes.
Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy."
I've been watching season one again and I found myself thinking this too. He has been shown to be a complete sweetheart to his girlfriends while still being an absolute jerk to other people. He really isn't a "good guy". He can act like one but right now it isn't his default setting.
She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
They will be fabulous together until some other aspect of their lives gets in the way. (Like suspicion of murder.)
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I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
This is also a great point. Once Logan comes to Veronica for help, he says, resolutely, "Veronica, she's not dead." It's like he's daring her to disagree with him. You can see how much effort he's putting into everything he says to her in an effort to get her to see things from his perspective. He knows how he sounds, but he doesn't want her thinking he's crazy, too. I also just plain love that he came to her. He could have gone to any PI in town, but he goes to Veronica. Why? Because she's his last connection to the good old days. Duncan has now abandoned him in this, thinking he's nuts. And obviously Logan's other friends (such as Dick) aren't close ones. I think if he'd had close friends to support him in this, there's no way he ever would have gone to her. I mean, I love that he's hugging his coat to himself when she answers the door, too (Jason Dohring rocks, obviously - he looks SO vulnerable, yet still very defensive). He looks like he's got no one, and she's his last hope. Also, I love that Logan has the nerve to go to Veronica for help, after everything he's said/done to her. To us, her reactions track because we know she overheard the counselling session, but for him, there's no good reason that she isn't far more standoffish with him when he comes to her.
Back to what you were saying, I wish that the reason for Logan calling Duncan had been explained. I don't like that they just glossed over that, because I really can't imagine what Logan would have said to Duncan when he called. I mean, all we know is Logan informed Duncan that he was camped out in a hotel lobby in L.A., but Logan didn't tell him why. That just bugs me. What was the purpose of the call? I guess we're supposed to think Logan was just bored, but that seems odd to me. I don't think Logan would have called Duncan without a reason.
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It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it.
That's definitely an interesting point. I can understand Duncan's staying out of the Lilly/Logan relationship a lot more than Lynn's not doing anything about Aaron's abuse of Logan, though. With Lilly and Logan, I can understand Duncan telling himself that he had no business prying into their relationship. I think he must have been in a terrible position, really, for a lot of that. He's stuck with his sister and his best friend fighting all the time, and I'm guessing they were very much pulling him in two different directions. Plus, even if Duncan had tried to warn Logan away from Lilly at some point, Logan falls so deeply in love that I don't think it would have mattered. Honestly, I think that if Lilly had lived, there's even still a chance that if she decided at some point she wanted Logan back, she could have gotten him, even if the Aaron/Lilly affair had blown up. I think she held great power over him. I would hope that he would never have gone back to her, and that it really was OVER, like he told V on the beach (without even knowing about Aaron/Lilly). Lilly was extremely manipulative, though, and I think in her own twisted way, she saw Logan as hers. She could take him out and play with him whenever she wanted, and then she could put him back on the shelf when she was bored. It's really morbid to say it, but I think for Logan, Lilly's death really freed him from her.
Also, now that Logan knows what led to Lilly's death, I don't know how he's going to deal with that after having had her on a pedestal for so long. This also brings up questions, of course, of whether or not Duncan and Lilly knew about the abuse. If Lilly knew, she is of course an even worse person. If she didn't know, then I find that kind of surprising, considering that Lilly and Logan were in a sexual relationship. Also, though, it's hard for me to believe Duncan and Lilly knew because I have a hard time believing they would have done nothing if they were aware that Logan was getting cigarette burns, broken noses, and belt whippings on any sort of regular basis. I suppose it's definitely possible that they just chose to ignore it since Logan did. That's just really sad.
Back to the earlier point, though, with Lynn, I have very little patience with her for not doing something about the abuse. I don't believe she was still in love with Aaron. Therefore, her reasoning for not doing something was simply her love of money and probably also her not wanting her public image dragged through the mud (hey, whaddyaknow? That's why Aaron killed Lilly). I hate that those things mattered to her more than Logan. And it's also really sad to see how much he loved his mother regardless of this.
In addition, it's interesting for me that the Fab Four were really a family for Logan, so by going to Veronica for help with his mom, it was kind of like going home in a way. And rather than kicking him out, she was willing to help because by that time she knew more about his motivations for the way he had treated her.
So that's it for this post. I'll try to get to your other responses, soon. :)
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