Sorry for the late reply. Summer is great for off line things but it is cutting into my on-line time. There have been days that I haven't even seen a computer.
I stopped watching Dawson's Creek by the second episode but I know enough people who didn't to understand the references. Those sorts of triangles are the worst. I don't want to see that on Veronica. The writing and acting is so much better though so I would still watch if they went that direction.
You are so right about how Duncan and Logan were best friends but aren't anymore. The only times I can think of them actually hanging out outside of school, without it being a flashback, are in the first episode and the Christmas one. Even if Lilly had not died I don't think their friendship would have lasted. They were already holding back things from each other. I am still very interested in how this will play out.
They had better explain Logan's living situation right away. They can have Logan living with Trina without ever actually showing Trina. It is far more likely that he will get his own place but he is going to have to do that when he turns 18 so it would be more fun (for us) to have him somewhere else first. Can you imagine what it would be like having Logan with Dick and Beaver under one roof? If I were Beaver I would be begging for boarding school. The foster care with a dozen little foster siblings would be the funniest. He could be in a new place every episode with more comedy gold. Except this is a drama so it would also be heartbraking.
I NEED to see Logan and Keith have a scene together like the one Keith had with Troy. Logan would not scare so easily.
I didn't really get into DC until WAY late in the game. I watched most of it on reruns in syndication, I think just because so many other people I knew had watched it and I had the time. You didn't miss much though. It's definitely not one of my favorite shows. It had many a flaw.
And yeah, the thing is that VM is such a higher quality show that I think whatever is done, it's gotta be better than DC. It would take a lot I think to get me to quit watching VM.
Yeah, Duncan and Logan don't seem to hang out much. I remember them eating lunch together in a few eps. They don't really seem to get along anymore. Like in ep 1.3 "Meet John Smith" and the pilot Logan is trying to get under Duncan's skin about Veronica. And in 1.13 "Lord of the Bling", Duncan goes to Logan's mom's funeral, and it just seemed like they were so distant from each other. Like Duncan hardly even knew Logan anymore. I mean, I think Veronica handled Logan better than Duncan when Logan came to her house regarding his belief that his mom was alive. That's saying a lot considering she was his archnemesis (or whatever) and Duncan was supposedly his best friend. I guess V had lost her mom, though, so she could probably relate to Logan more. I think Logan and Veronica just communicate better than Duncan in general, though.
I think the Fab Four was destined to break up, regardless of Lilly's death. Duncan had already broken up with Veronica, without telling her or Logan why. Lilly was cheating on Logan - with his DAD - so I think it's safe to say they were done, not just off-again. If Lilly ever told V about her affair with Aaron, I tend to believe V wouldn't have been able to stay friends with her. I mean, she was Logan's friend, too, and here was Logan's girlfriend (or ex, whatever), sleeping with his dad. That's just so incredibly wrong. And Logan was already mad at V about the Yolanda thing. So yeah, even before Lilly's death, they were imploding. It's all really sad, but I love how complex all of that is. I mean, wow, this show is so good.
I want Logan's living situation explained right away, too. I'll be annoyed if it's not. I agree it'd be fun for us to have him somewhere else before he turns 18. Him complaining about Trina would probably be cute. I can't see her keeping him in line at all, though, so she wouldn't be like much of a guardian. I think he'd just do whatever he wanted regardless, and I don't know if she'd even care.
I think it would be funny to have Logan living with Dick and Beaver. It would probably be painful for Logan in a lot of ways. I don't think he's really all that close to either one of them (even before the last two eps last season).
I'd love the foster care, too. I really can't see us getting it, though. Grumble, grumble.
I love the new place every ep concept, too, like no place can handle him for any extended period of time.
I would love a Logan/Keith scene and a Logan/Wallace scene. Those both have lots of potential, definitely. I think Logan thinks better on his feet than Troy, so he could come up with good comebacks for Keith. And it might be cute for Logan and Wallace to be all awkward, and then V has to go do something. Then Logan and Wallace start talking about her (perhaps something she does that they find endearing or annoying), and she comes back and they won't shut up, teasing her and such. So they bond over their mutual Veronica love... Aw, I can't stand how long I have to wait for new eps.
I have to admit right off that I did look at more spoilers. I have a hard time resisting when there aren't any new episodes to distract me. I am going to try not to do it again but right now I have no confidence in my abilities to resist. I haven't studied the spoilers, and this isn't really the place for them, so I won't discuss them here.
I think that Duncan realized after the poker game that Logan wasn't who he thought he was anymore. The new Logan wasn't someone Duncan could like. When it turned out that Logan hadn't taken the money Duncan just thought that he had been wrong to think that about Logan. Duncan may have apologized for saying the things that he did but neither one forgot he said them. Also, they both knew that he was right.
After that Logan's life got more complicated because of Aaron's affairs and stabbing and then Lynn's suicide. Duncan may have wanted to be there for Logan but I think he found himself unable to be. He didn't understand this new Logan and losing a mother was far too similar to losing a sister for Duncan. So when Logan took a step back and then went to Veronica instead Duncan just let him go. Duncan's form of coping has always been to ignore it and hope it will just go away.
Logan likes to fight whatever is wrong. Veronica does too. Veronica is better at it because she always makes a plan while Logan just strikes out. Of course they were going to get together once they were given targets other than each other to strike at. Duncan just doesn't function that way and so it must have been quite a shock when he saw them together.
Because of the spoilers that I read I have some idea of how this is going to play next season. I'm still very interested in seeing it play out and am curious to see it all explained.
The Fab Four were definitely heading for a melt down. Veronica has romaticied the whole thing, especially Lilly's part in it. She may have loved Duncan but it was Lilly that she loved more. She was completely blind to all of Lilly's bad traits. She just ignored them when they came up. That is exactly how Duncan behaves with the things he doesn't like. Logan is the only one I've seen not ignore them while Lilly was alive. He couldn't when he was often the victim to Lilly's tantrums. If Lilly hadn't been killed I like to think that Veronica would have taken a good look at the way she behaives around other people and then gone to be friends with Yolanda instead. Today's Veronica would have but she is stronger than Lilly's Veronica. The think with Aaron would have upset Lilly's Veronica but then I think she would just ignore it until the next bad thing Lilly did. Eventually Veronica would have left Lilly but not without being force to confront Lilly's dark side. Lilly was really that fun.
If there were spoilers for where Logan is going to be staying I didn't see them. The idea that he may stay with Dick and Beaver is appealing to me more and more. I don't know how they could explain it except that maybe the parents were asked by Aaron (or Trina) to take Logan in. I can see Trina getting custody and then sending Logan somewhere else 'for his own good'. I, of course, know who is playing their 'mom'.
It would be so fun to see Wallace and Logan just sitting down and having a conversation. I can imagine that Veronica would find them getting together to chat a very uncomfortable thing. The only thing that they could be talking about would be her. They have nothing else in common. Except for video games. They should play video games. I think Wallace could be the best friend Logan ever had. Wallace is better at being friends than anyone else in the show.
Keith and Logan would be a completely different thing. Logan would not find Keith threatening at all. His dad is a psycho killer and he stood up to him. Nobody else's dad is going to come close to comparing. If Keith is going to convince Logan of anything he is going to have to use reason and Logan is going to have to be willing to listen.
Part 1 of 4 - Yeah, this post is insanely long. This comment is over 3 and a half pages in Microsoft Word, so I'm just putting it up in four parts. This could be the longest LJ post ever! VM, it's so chat-worthy.
And don't feel like your response has to be this long! I know I like to talk. So however much you want to write is fine. :-)
I looked at some spoilers. I know a lot of stuff for the first ep next season. I had quit looking by the time the stepmother actress was announced, and let me just say YAY!!! I love her! I found out by seeing her in pics with the VM cast at Comicon, and then there was the actual UPN press release to confirm it. So anyway, if you were still looking at spoilers when she was announced, I could tell you everything I know, and we could talk about it like that. Although, like you said, this isn't really the place for it so...
As far as Duncan, Logan, and the poker game goes, I really liked the last scene between the two of them at the end of that ep. Duncan apologizes, and Logan responds, "I've done plenty of other things." I love that Logan knows the type of person he has become. He doesn't act all indignent and like Duncan should be begging for his forgiveness. And then, yeah, they say they're cool. However, you're right, Duncan said what he said and there's no taking it back now. Now Logan knows how Duncan views him. And I really think that's a good thing. Logan won't listen to most people, only those he really cares about. Of course I'm sure it also had a lot to do with his mom, but after that episode Logan starts to change for the better. I think realizing how much Duncan's opinion of him had changed in a negative way must have had some positive impact on Logan. Before that, he could probably just tell himself that his actions didn't matter all that much - that he deserved to be able to be mean to people because of how much he'd been hurt.
It is interesting to me that when Logan's life got more complicated, with Aaron's affairs and stabbing and then Lynn's suicide, Logan actually became much more vulnerable - at least to the guidance counsellor and Veronica. However, he didn't show that side of himself to Duncan. And I think you're right about Duncan not knowing how to be there for Logan at that time. You're right that Duncan just wants to ignore problems and hope they go away, and when he saw Logan like that I think he decided to just let Logan handle things on his own, hoping it'd all turn out alright. Not a great solution in my opinion, but there you have it. And yeah, the other thing was that Duncan was not dealing well with having lost Lilly (he still saw her in his dream in 1.3, and he felt like she was always watching him in 1.12), so he probably didn't feel like he could adequately help Logan with through the trauma of his mom's death. Plus, there was the fact that Logan wasn't believing his mom was dead in the first place, which is something that just scared Duncan I think. He didn't know what to do with that.
I am really enjoying your posts. I definitely don't mind you making long posts, especially if you don't mind me taking my time to respond to them.
It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I liked that scene with Duncan apologizing to Logan for 'breaking up' with him too. Duncan may have been the only person other than his mom that Logan would have listened to at this point. When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it. I'm going to have to ponder this more.
It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I guess we'll try to keep it here for now. I think you know more than me, and I don't want to be any more spoiled. I guess we can just make vague references to spoilers if we feel it's necessary for whatever we're trying to say and think the other person already knows.
When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
I think the thing is that Logan was probably able to previously repress a lot of the feelings of guilt that generally come with being a bad person. Up to that point, he was able to just tell himself that he deserved to act the way he was acting. After Duncan said that, he realized that excuse was stupid. I think he started to feel a lot worse about his behavior, which is probably what brought on his willingness to share his feelings with the counsellor. In that conversation, you can really see his self-loathing coming through. I think the confrontation with Duncan tore down a wall that Logan had built up, which led to his ability to say what he said to Ms. James.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica. And from what I've seen, the change in him now is obviously most pronounced when he's with her, but around other people, he can still be a pretty big jerk. It's not like he's left his old personality behind. We just see most of the show from V's perspective, so he seems like a much better person to us, now. And I think on some level he is a better person, but at the same time, he's still sarcastic and often uses cutting remarks. Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy." I don't think Rob wants that, and obviously, it would probably make the character much less interesting. Also, his sarcasm and wit are his coping mechanisms for all the crap life throws his way, and considering the fact that life just keeps laying into him with awful thing after awful thing, I don't see him being ready to let go of those coping mechanisms anytime soon. He probably won't ever let them go. But his complex personality is what makes me, and I think a lot of other people, so incredibly fascinated with him as a character, so I guess that kind of works out well - as far as entertaining TV goes at least.
Also, I think Logan's complexity - vulnerability and ability to love mixed with sarcasm and wit - is what makes him so attractive to Veronica (aside from his looks, obviously). I think without these things, he'd be much like Duncan, and because of how much life has hardened Veronica, she needs someone she can banter with. She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I love this whole point you made. That's just really great - really insightful. I think you're probably really hitting at what was going on there. It definitely makes a lot of sense.
I think the confrontation with Duncan tore down a wall that Logan had built up, which led to his ability to say what he said to Ms. James.
Very good point. This also is what allows Veronica to remember that their relationship wasn't always so confrontational.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica.
It always leads back to V. It has to, it's her show. I wonder what would have happened if it hadn't led to Veronica. Keith still would have been able to clear Able but would Beaver have been so willing to talk to V if he hadn't had believed that Logan want to off her? Even if he had V wouldn't have had that reminder of hiding things in vents. It would have been just Duncan and Logan as suspects with Weevil as an outside chance. Aaron would have gotten away with it. So the LoVe story helped the Lilly plot along as well as give us so great scenes.
Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy."
I've been watching season one again and I found myself thinking this too. He has been shown to be a complete sweetheart to his girlfriends while still being an absolute jerk to other people. He really isn't a "good guy". He can act like one but right now it isn't his default setting.
She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
They will be fabulous together until some other aspect of their lives gets in the way. (Like suspicion of murder.)
Part 2 of 3 actually (not 2 like I said before - I really do write a lot)
I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
This is also a great point. Once Logan comes to Veronica for help, he says, resolutely, "Veronica, she's not dead." It's like he's daring her to disagree with him. You can see how much effort he's putting into everything he says to her in an effort to get her to see things from his perspective. He knows how he sounds, but he doesn't want her thinking he's crazy, too. I also just plain love that he came to her. He could have gone to any PI in town, but he goes to Veronica. Why? Because she's his last connection to the good old days. Duncan has now abandoned him in this, thinking he's nuts. And obviously Logan's other friends (such as Dick) aren't close ones. I think if he'd had close friends to support him in this, there's no way he ever would have gone to her. I mean, I love that he's hugging his coat to himself when she answers the door, too (Jason Dohring rocks, obviously - he looks SO vulnerable, yet still very defensive). He looks like he's got no one, and she's his last hope. Also, I love that Logan has the nerve to go to Veronica for help, after everything he's said/done to her. To us, her reactions track because we know she overheard the counselling session, but for him, there's no good reason that she isn't far more standoffish with him when he comes to her.
Back to what you were saying, I wish that the reason for Logan calling Duncan had been explained. I don't like that they just glossed over that, because I really can't imagine what Logan would have said to Duncan when he called. I mean, all we know is Logan informed Duncan that he was camped out in a hotel lobby in L.A., but Logan didn't tell him why. That just bugs me. What was the purpose of the call? I guess we're supposed to think Logan was just bored, but that seems odd to me. I don't think Logan would have called Duncan without a reason.
It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it.
That's definitely an interesting point. I can understand Duncan's staying out of the Lilly/Logan relationship a lot more than Lynn's not doing anything about Aaron's abuse of Logan, though. With Lilly and Logan, I can understand Duncan telling himself that he had no business prying into their relationship. I think he must have been in a terrible position, really, for a lot of that. He's stuck with his sister and his best friend fighting all the time, and I'm guessing they were very much pulling him in two different directions. Plus, even if Duncan had tried to warn Logan away from Lilly at some point, Logan falls so deeply in love that I don't think it would have mattered. Honestly, I think that if Lilly had lived, there's even still a chance that if she decided at some point she wanted Logan back, she could have gotten him, even if the Aaron/Lilly affair had blown up. I think she held great power over him. I would hope that he would never have gone back to her, and that it really was OVER, like he told V on the beach (without even knowing about Aaron/Lilly). Lilly was extremely manipulative, though, and I think in her own twisted way, she saw Logan as hers. She could take him out and play with him whenever she wanted, and then she could put him back on the shelf when she was bored. It's really morbid to say it, but I think for Logan, Lilly's death really freed him from her.
Also, now that Logan knows what led to Lilly's death, I don't know how he's going to deal with that after having had her on a pedestal for so long. This also brings up questions, of course, of whether or not Duncan and Lilly knew about the abuse. If Lilly knew, she is of course an even worse person. If she didn't know, then I find that kind of surprising, considering that Lilly and Logan were in a sexual relationship. Also, though, it's hard for me to believe Duncan and Lilly knew because I have a hard time believing they would have done nothing if they were aware that Logan was getting cigarette burns, broken noses, and belt whippings on any sort of regular basis. I suppose it's definitely possible that they just chose to ignore it since Logan did. That's just really sad.
Back to the earlier point, though, with Lynn, I have very little patience with her for not doing something about the abuse. I don't believe she was still in love with Aaron. Therefore, her reasoning for not doing something was simply her love of money and probably also her not wanting her public image dragged through the mud (hey, whaddyaknow? That's why Aaron killed Lilly). I hate that those things mattered to her more than Logan. And it's also really sad to see how much he loved his mother regardless of this.
In addition, it's interesting for me that the Fab Four were really a family for Logan, so by going to Veronica for help with his mom, it was kind of like going home in a way. And rather than kicking him out, she was willing to help because by that time she knew more about his motivations for the way he had treated her.
So that's it for this post. I'll try to get to your other responses, soon. :)
Logan likes to fight whatever is wrong. Veronica does too. Veronica is better at it because she always makes a plan while Logan just strikes out. Of course they were going to get together once they were given targets other than each other to strike at. Duncan just doesn't function that way and so it must have been quite a shock when he saw them together.
Ooh, I love that. And it just further shows, I think, how much more sense L/V makes than D/V. As we've already seen, Veronica hates the "stands idly by" Duncan. I also have a feeling that underneath it all, V had to like the way L handled himself both the times she ditched him re: the GHB and the cameras. The first time, he pursued her. He wouldn't just let it drop. He had to know what he'd done wrong and try to fix it. This would be very appealing to V, I think, considering that when Duncan ditched her, V didn't go after him and force him to explain. I think she probably always wished she had had the nerve to do that at that time, too. So then, flash forward to the fact that Logan did go after her after she ditched him on the boat. This showed how much he already cared about the relationship, and he wasn't going to let her do to him what Duncan did to her. The second time, after the cameras, Logan just let her be. He probably assumed that since things were going great until he left for drinks, he hadn't done anything to make her flee. Therefore, he knew he should just give her time. And I love that when she did come to him, he showed how hurt he was, but at the same time, he was quick to see the whole thing from her perspective and ready to move on from it. Such a good boyfriend, I think.
[V] just ignored [Lilly's bad traits] when they came up. That is exactly how Duncan behaves with the things he doesn't like.
This is a great point. And it further shows how V and Duncan used to make sense as a couple, but they no longer do. Veronica has hardened and now speaks her opinion and does what she wants to do. While V was breaking out of her shell, Duncan went off to live in denial land and really just closed in on himself. I think he became less outgoing and all that. In the Homecoming flashbacks, he seemed like a much more easy-going, cool guy who could have fun. He didn't seem to take things too seriously. That's so not the case most of the time now.
I hope that finding out about Aaron and Lilly (since I think Lilly was planning on telling Veronica) would have been enough to get Vintage Veronica to turn her back on Lilly. I think Veronica would have told Logan and begun avoiding Lilly. I think her morals would not have allowed her to maintain the Lilly friendship.
As for V going to be friends with Yolanda instead - well, Yolanda kind of bugs me. I mean, fine, I can buy that Logan was the one who kissed her, but it's not like she was helpless. I mean, if I was left alone with a friend's drunk boyfriend and he kissed me, no matter how much I liked him, I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't push him off. I'm just saying, regardless of who initiated the kiss, there was nothing stopping Yolanda from pulling back. She wouldn't even have had to make a big thing of it. She could've just laughed it off and said, "You're drunk, Logan." End of story. But she didn't. She kissed him back, and from what it looked like, she really enjoyed the whole thing. That's what bugs me. And because of that, I get Lilly not wanting to be friends with her anymore. Now, from the other side of things, I figure Lilly is way messed up - telling Yolanda he's all hers, even in a flippant way, and "looking" for a new boyfriend, was definitely not the type of thing to give Yolanda the idea that she needed to stay away from Lilly's man. But, obviously Logan was still Lilly's boyfriend, so not kissing him rules still apply. The thing that really bugs me is how Lilly must've made Logan suffer for that kiss, when I figure there's a good chance Lilly had already cheated on Logan in far worse ways.
I also have a feeling that underneath it all, V had to like the way L handled himself both the times she ditched him re: the GHB and the cameras.
You know I think your right. V was so angry at first but she went back to him after she found out he didn't rape her. They went right back to where they were before the GHB reveal. They weren't ignoring it either they did talk it out first. This is probably what impressed her about him. He was actively listening and being supportive. Although we didn't get to see it I think that Duncan would have also been a good listener and very supportive (as long as it isn't something he is emotionally involved with). Leo and Troy were also very attentive. This must be on her list of good boyfriend traits. (It's on mine.) The GHB thing was an extreme way to test that. She also called him once she found out his didn't kill Lilly. I'd like to think that she was planning on going back to him again.
And it further shows how V and Duncan used to make sense as a couple, but they no longer do.
Of course, V and Duncan both changed after Lilly's death but while V broke her shell Duncan went further in. They both romanticized their time together. V has realized that she 'isn't that girl anymore'. Duncan may have noticed the changes in V but hasn't realized their significance. He thinks she still is 'that girl'. The only time they hung out socially the last year that I can think of was at the poker game. That's more intimate than talking by the lockers but not by much. There were enough other things going on that I doubt V and Duncan said more than 'pass the chips' to each other.
Now that Lilly's killer has been caught Duncan, Logan, and V are all in for another change. How they'll change I don't know. (I suspect some things form spoilers.) Duncan and V don't make a good couple now but he might change into someone who would make a good couple with V. If he does then the triangle they are aiming for would be far more interesting to watch. I still want her with Logan though.
I hope that finding out about Aaron and Lilly (since I think Lilly was planning on telling Veronica) would have been enough to get Vintage Veronica to turn her back on Lilly.
I want to think that too, but I don't. Vintage V was more of an avoider. As long as she wasn't confronted with the fallout of the affair I don't think it would have ruined her friendship with Lilly. It would have put cracks in so that VV would start to take a more serious look at Lilly's behavior. She seemed like the sort that would stand by a friend even if she doesn't support their behavior. Weevil is a good example of this. She doesn't care that he is car jacking as long as it doesn't affect her.
As for V going to be friends with Yolanda instead - well, Yolanda kind of bugs me.
Your right about everything you said about Yolanda, Lilly, Logan, and the kiss. The thing is fab four had just broken up and Lilly was the only one VV was still on good terms with. If VV was going to tell Lilly she was being unreasonable about any of this she would need someone else in her corner. VV was not the lone wolf that she would become. So even though Yolanda did kiss Lilly's boyfriend and was wrong to do so VV would have hung out with her if she couldn't be friends with Lilly.
The thing that really bugs me is how Lilly must've made Logan suffer for that kiss, when I figure there's a good chance Lilly had already cheated on Logan in far worse ways.
Lilly was not the sort of girl who should have had a long-term boyfriend. I think it only lasted because every time she'd kick him to the curb he'd crawl right back. He may have gotten her all the party favors she could want but he just couldn't hold her attention. She seems the sort who only wants things until she has them. She wasn't devoted to him at all but he was still hers. If she had lived she would have gotten him back once she was done with Aaron.
I really have major problems with Lilly. She just makes me really mad. She had all this charisma, and the ability to draw people to herself, and this sparkling personality, and she used it all in terrible ways. Manipulating people, messing around with Weevil, sleeping with her on again, off again boyfriend's dad... She really cared about herself far more than anyone else in her life. She was incredibly selfish. Interesting how her great undoing was when she let herself become involved with Aaron, who was also an incredibly selfish, big-headed person.
I also find it interesting how early on in season 1, Logan has pretty much taken a page from Lilly in that way. He had become very self-centered, and was using his charisma, personality, charm, wit, etc. to tear people down and make them feel as terrible as he did deep down. I guess I find it easier to forgive Logan than Lilly, because Lilly didn't have the reasons Logan had for acting the way she did. I mean, her parents weren't the greatest. Boo hoo. I think Logan must have had a worse family life than Lilly back in the Fab Four days, because his dad beats him! Lilly's parents just favored Duncan. And yet my guess is that Logan just made the Fab Four his second family, and did his best to ignore his biological family, while Lilly just spent her time moping and whining about her family and doing whatever she could to upset her mom. Logan's reasons for acting as he did are far better than any Lilly had - 1)Logan was acting that way because of how much pain he was in. He didn't know how to deal, and he lashed out at people. And we saw how bad he really felt about his behavior. In ep 1.12 guidance cousellor - he admits (in a roundabout way) that he knows he is projecting his anger onto Veronica unfairly, and that truly, he also blames himself and Lilly for Lilly's death. Veronica is just the convenient punching bag. That's also the moment that Veronica is able to see what has really been going on with Logan beneath the surface, and she can finally start to change her attitude/opinion of him. Also, 2) I think Logan is really sorry for what a jerk he was to Veronica earlier in season 1. And I think Veronica did take the brute of Logan's OPJness, so that means quite a bit.
The thing with Aaron would have upset Lilly's Veronica but then I think she would just ignore it until the next bad thing Lilly did. Eventually Veronica would have left Lilly but not without being force to confront Lilly's dark side. Lilly was really that fun.
As much as I wanna think VV had the nerve to leave Lilly if the Aaron thing came out, you're probably right. VV was weak, and Lilly was manipulative, so yeah.
I SOOOO want Logan to have as many scenes with CC as possible. Please let him live with Dick and Beaver, PLEASE! I love the snarky possiblities there. They could play off each other sooo well, I think. CC was sitting by Jason at the VM Comicon thing. Perhaps a good sign? I can hope. I really want scenes between them. So much.
As you should, she was very selfish. She treated all of her loved ones, except V, badly. I see her problems with her parents due to personality conflicts and the fact they were actually trying to parent her. It may have seemed unfair to her that she would get into more trouble than Duncan for doing the same thing but it wasn't because her parents knew their children well and understood exactly who was responsible for what. If she had lived I don't know that she would have ever learned to behave better. She was too involved in herself to see any of the damage she inflicted on others.
Logan can be self centered and cruel but he also has shown empathy and remorse, two things Lilly never had. Also, as cruel as he was to V and others I don't think he was ever as bad as Lilly was. Only Aaron was worse than Lilly.
I SOOOO want Logan to have as many scenes with CC as possible.
Can you just image if CC tries to be maternal. They better have scenes together.
Logan and Wallace playing video games would be great. Veronica could be there for some reason, and she could be really bored and sick of them playing the game and ignoring her. And then Logan could teach her to play. So cute.
I agree that Wallace could be a really great friend for Logan. I could be wrong, but I just don't see the writers letting that happen, though. I think they don't want Logan to have a really solid, normal, healthy life. They want plenty of angst, and the fewer good ties Logan has, the easier it is for them to write that. Wallace is going to be a little busy with another new character next season (hint hint on a spoiler), so that plus his relationship with V may be all they focus on with him. I do really want Logan and Wallace scenes, though, so I'm still hoping for some.
You're right that Keith normally wouldn't be threatening to Logan. However, Logan is so incredibly into Veronica (I think he's probably already in love with her), that if things are going well with them, I can see Logan being very concerned about how he is perceived by Keith. He knows that Keith is the most important person in the world to Veronica. He knows that Keith's opinion of him will weigh heavily on Veronica, and he knows it could definitely affect her opinion of him. Therefore, I think Logan will probably be on his best behavior whenever he is around Keith. He won't want anything to come up that could jeapardize what he has with V, because their relationship will probably be the most important thing to him.
No, they won't let Wallace and Logan be friends. Wallace would be too influential on Logan's mental health.
Keith, because he is not stupid, would probably realize that the only way he could influence Logan's behavior is by convincing him he could influence Veronica's. Logan may feel that V could be highly influenced by Keith. She gave up her whole life style to support him. Logan has never seen her go against her father he may not think that she would. Even if V tells him that's not the case Logan would probably try to behave for Keith. This would be especially true if Logan makes him his own father figure. Having approval of a father figure that he respects would be a huge thing for Logan. If, for some reason, Keith comes at this heavy handed then Logan would behave the opposite. Logan can't help but fight when threatened.
Splitting up the post was a good idea. I was able to organize my thoughts much quicker.
I stopped watching Dawson's Creek by the second episode but I know enough people who didn't to understand the references. Those sorts of triangles are the worst. I don't want to see that on Veronica. The writing and acting is so much better though so I would still watch if they went that direction.
You are so right about how Duncan and Logan were best friends but aren't anymore. The only times I can think of them actually hanging out outside of school, without it being a flashback, are in the first episode and the Christmas one. Even if Lilly had not died I don't think their friendship would have lasted. They were already holding back things from each other. I am still very interested in how this will play out.
They had better explain Logan's living situation right away. They can have Logan living with Trina without ever actually showing Trina. It is far more likely that he will get his own place but he is going to have to do that when he turns 18 so it would be more fun (for us) to have him somewhere else first. Can you imagine what it would be like having Logan with Dick and Beaver under one roof? If I were Beaver I would be begging for boarding school. The foster care with a dozen little foster siblings would be the funniest. He could be in a new place every episode with more comedy gold. Except this is a drama so it would also be heartbraking.
I NEED to see Logan and Keith have a scene together like the one Keith had with Troy. Logan would not scare so easily.
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And yeah, the thing is that VM is such a higher quality show that I think whatever is done, it's gotta be better than DC. It would take a lot I think to get me to quit watching VM.
Yeah, Duncan and Logan don't seem to hang out much. I remember them eating lunch together in a few eps. They don't really seem to get along anymore. Like in ep 1.3 "Meet John Smith" and the pilot Logan is trying to get under Duncan's skin about Veronica. And in 1.13 "Lord of the Bling", Duncan goes to Logan's mom's funeral, and it just seemed like they were so distant from each other. Like Duncan hardly even knew Logan anymore. I mean, I think Veronica handled Logan better than Duncan when Logan came to her house regarding his belief that his mom was alive. That's saying a lot considering she was his archnemesis (or whatever) and Duncan was supposedly his best friend. I guess V had lost her mom, though, so she could probably relate to Logan more. I think Logan and Veronica just communicate better than Duncan in general, though.
I think the Fab Four was destined to break up, regardless of Lilly's death. Duncan had already broken up with Veronica, without telling her or Logan why. Lilly was cheating on Logan - with his DAD - so I think it's safe to say they were done, not just off-again. If Lilly ever told V about her affair with Aaron, I tend to believe V wouldn't have been able to stay friends with her. I mean, she was Logan's friend, too, and here was Logan's girlfriend (or ex, whatever), sleeping with his dad. That's just so incredibly wrong. And Logan was already mad at V about the Yolanda thing. So yeah, even before Lilly's death, they were imploding. It's all really sad, but I love how complex all of that is. I mean, wow, this show is so good.
I want Logan's living situation explained right away, too. I'll be annoyed if it's not. I agree it'd be fun for us to have him somewhere else before he turns 18. Him complaining about Trina would probably be cute. I can't see her keeping him in line at all, though, so she wouldn't be like much of a guardian. I think he'd just do whatever he wanted regardless, and I don't know if she'd even care.
I think it would be funny to have Logan living with Dick and Beaver. It would probably be painful for Logan in a lot of ways. I don't think he's really all that close to either one of them (even before the last two eps last season).
I'd love the foster care, too. I really can't see us getting it, though. Grumble, grumble.
I love the new place every ep concept, too, like no place can handle him for any extended period of time.
I would love a Logan/Keith scene and a Logan/Wallace scene. Those both have lots of potential, definitely. I think Logan thinks better on his feet than Troy, so he could come up with good comebacks for Keith. And it might be cute for Logan and Wallace to be all awkward, and then V has to go do something. Then Logan and Wallace start talking about her (perhaps something she does that they find endearing or annoying), and she comes back and they won't shut up, teasing her and such. So they bond over their mutual Veronica love... Aw, I can't stand how long I have to wait for new eps.
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I think that Duncan realized after the poker game that Logan wasn't who he thought he was anymore. The new Logan wasn't someone Duncan could like. When it turned out that Logan hadn't taken the money Duncan just thought that he had been wrong to think that about Logan. Duncan may have apologized for saying the things that he did but neither one forgot he said them. Also, they both knew that he was right.
After that Logan's life got more complicated because of Aaron's affairs and stabbing and then Lynn's suicide. Duncan may have wanted to be there for Logan but I think he found himself unable to be. He didn't understand this new Logan and losing a mother was far too similar to losing a sister for Duncan. So when Logan took a step back and then went to Veronica instead Duncan just let him go. Duncan's form of coping has always been to ignore it and hope it will just go away.
Logan likes to fight whatever is wrong. Veronica does too. Veronica is better at it because she always makes a plan while Logan just strikes out. Of course they were going to get together once they were given targets other than each other to strike at. Duncan just doesn't function that way and so it must have been quite a shock when he saw them together.
Because of the spoilers that I read I have some idea of how this is going to play next season. I'm still very interested in seeing it play out and am curious to see it all explained.
The Fab Four were definitely heading for a melt down. Veronica has romaticied the whole thing, especially Lilly's part in it. She may have loved Duncan but it was Lilly that she loved more. She was completely blind to all of Lilly's bad traits. She just ignored them when they came up. That is exactly how Duncan behaves with the things he doesn't like. Logan is the only one I've seen not ignore them while Lilly was alive. He couldn't when he was often the victim to Lilly's tantrums. If Lilly hadn't been killed I like to think that Veronica would have taken a good look at the way she behaives around other people and then gone to be friends with Yolanda instead. Today's Veronica would have but she is stronger than Lilly's Veronica. The think with Aaron would have upset Lilly's Veronica but then I think she would just ignore it until the next bad thing Lilly did. Eventually Veronica would have left Lilly but not without being force to confront Lilly's dark side. Lilly was really that fun.
If there were spoilers for where Logan is going to be staying I didn't see them. The idea that he may stay with Dick and Beaver is appealing to me more and more. I don't know how they could explain it except that maybe the parents were asked by Aaron (or Trina) to take Logan in. I can see Trina getting custody and then sending Logan somewhere else 'for his own good'. I, of course, know who is playing their 'mom'.
It would be so fun to see Wallace and Logan just sitting down and having a conversation. I can imagine that Veronica would find them getting together to chat a very uncomfortable thing. The only thing that they could be talking about would be her. They have nothing else in common. Except for video games. They should play video games. I think Wallace could be the best friend Logan ever had. Wallace is better at being friends than anyone else in the show.
Keith and Logan would be a completely different thing. Logan would not find Keith threatening at all. His dad is a psycho killer and he stood up to him. Nobody else's dad is going to come close to comparing. If Keith is going to convince Logan of anything he is going to have to use reason and Logan is going to have to be willing to listen.
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And don't feel like your response has to be this long! I know I like to talk. So however much you want to write is fine. :-)
I looked at some spoilers. I know a lot of stuff for the first ep next season. I had quit looking by the time the stepmother actress was announced, and let me just say YAY!!! I love her! I found out by seeing her in pics with the VM cast at Comicon, and then there was the actual UPN press release to confirm it. So anyway, if you were still looking at spoilers when she was announced, I could tell you everything I know, and we could talk about it like that. Although, like you said, this isn't really the place for it so...
As far as Duncan, Logan, and the poker game goes, I really liked the last scene between the two of them at the end of that ep. Duncan apologizes, and Logan responds, "I've done plenty of other things." I love that Logan knows the type of person he has become. He doesn't act all indignent and like Duncan should be begging for his forgiveness. And then, yeah, they say they're cool. However, you're right, Duncan said what he said and there's no taking it back now. Now Logan knows how Duncan views him. And I really think that's a good thing. Logan won't listen to most people, only those he really cares about. Of course I'm sure it also had a lot to do with his mom, but after that episode Logan starts to change for the better. I think realizing how much Duncan's opinion of him had changed in a negative way must have had some positive impact on Logan. Before that, he could probably just tell himself that his actions didn't matter all that much - that he deserved to be able to be mean to people because of how much he'd been hurt.
It is interesting to me that when Logan's life got more complicated, with Aaron's affairs and stabbing and then Lynn's suicide, Logan actually became much more vulnerable - at least to the guidance counsellor and Veronica. However, he didn't show that side of himself to Duncan. And I think you're right about Duncan not knowing how to be there for Logan at that time. You're right that Duncan just wants to ignore problems and hope they go away, and when he saw Logan like that I think he decided to just let Logan handle things on his own, hoping it'd all turn out alright. Not a great solution in my opinion, but there you have it. And yeah, the other thing was that Duncan was not dealing well with having lost Lilly (he still saw her in his dream in 1.3, and he felt like she was always watching him in 1.12), so he probably didn't feel like he could adequately help Logan with through the trauma of his mom's death. Plus, there was the fact that Logan wasn't believing his mom was dead in the first place, which is something that just scared Duncan I think. He didn't know what to do with that.
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It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I liked that scene with Duncan apologizing to Logan for 'breaking up' with him too. Duncan may have been the only person other than his mom that Logan would have listened to at this point. When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it. I'm going to have to ponder this more.
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It sounds like we are on the same page with spoilers. That's good. We can imply all we want about them without spoiling anyone else. Still, if you want to move this somewhere else just let me know.
I guess we'll try to keep it here for now. I think you know more than me, and I don't want to be any more spoiled. I guess we can just make vague references to spoilers if we feel it's necessary for whatever we're trying to say and think the other person already knows.
When Duncan told him he had become a bad person Logan took it seriously and then decided that it was true. It's hard to say how much Logan would have changed after that without all of the family stuff going on but I think he would have made an effort.
I think the thing is that Logan was probably able to previously repress a lot of the feelings of guilt that generally come with being a bad person. Up to that point, he was able to just tell himself that he deserved to act the way he was acting. After Duncan said that, he realized that excuse was stupid. I think he started to feel a lot worse about his behavior, which is probably what brought on his willingness to share his feelings with the counsellor. In that conversation, you can really see his self-loathing coming through. I think the confrontation with Duncan tore down a wall that Logan had built up, which led to his ability to say what he said to Ms. James.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica. And from what I've seen, the change in him now is obviously most pronounced when he's with her, but around other people, he can still be a pretty big jerk. It's not like he's left his old personality behind. We just see most of the show from V's perspective, so he seems like a much better person to us, now. And I think on some level he is a better person, but at the same time, he's still sarcastic and often uses cutting remarks. Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy." I don't think Rob wants that, and obviously, it would probably make the character much less interesting. Also, his sarcasm and wit are his coping mechanisms for all the crap life throws his way, and considering the fact that life just keeps laying into him with awful thing after awful thing, I don't see him being ready to let go of those coping mechanisms anytime soon. He probably won't ever let them go. But his complex personality is what makes me, and I think a lot of other people, so incredibly fascinated with him as a character, so I guess that kind of works out well - as far as entertaining TV goes at least.
Also, I think Logan's complexity - vulnerability and ability to love mixed with sarcasm and wit - is what makes him so attractive to Veronica (aside from his looks, obviously). I think without these things, he'd be much like Duncan, and because of how much life has hardened Veronica, she needs someone she can banter with. She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
Duncan was definitely not dealing well with Lilly's death. He knew she was dead but to him it felt like she wasn't. Logan's statement of his mom not being dead probably hit a little too close to home. He saw Logan as crazy and if he thought about it that makes him crazy too. Being crazy has to be a huge fear of Duncan's. While his parents both practice the ignore it and it will go away philosophy they still seem to think he is mentally ill. Duncan has to know that. Logan's crazy was far too visible to be ignored so Duncan had to back off.
I love this whole point you made. That's just really great - really insightful. I think you're probably really hitting at what was going on there. It definitely makes a lot of sense.
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Very good point. This also is what allows Veronica to remember that their relationship wasn't always so confrontational.
I agree that Logan would have probably made an effort to change after the fight with Duncan. However, without all the family stuff, Logan wouldn't have had a reason to go to Veronica.
It always leads back to V. It has to, it's her show. I wonder what would have happened if it hadn't led to Veronica. Keith still would have been able to clear Able but would Beaver have been so willing to talk to V if he hadn't had believed that Logan want to off her? Even if he had V wouldn't have had that reminder of hiding things in vents. It would have been just Duncan and Logan as suspects with Weevil as an outside chance. Aaron would have gotten away with it. So the LoVe story helped the Lilly plot along as well as give us so great scenes.
Also, he was the most mean to V from what we saw in the show, so the fact that he's done a complete about-face in that aspect makes it seem like he's completely changed as a character, when really, he hasn't. I tend to think he never will become a real "good guy."
I've been watching season one again and I found myself thinking this too. He has been shown to be a complete sweetheart to his girlfriends while still being an absolute jerk to other people. He really isn't a "good guy". He can act like one but right now it isn't his default setting.
She needs someone who is messed up, just like her ("train wreck" in her own words). They can understand each other and communicate in a way they can't do with anyone else.
They will be fabulous together until some other aspect of their lives gets in the way. (Like suspicion of murder.)
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I think Logan wouldn't have understood why Duncan was backing off but would have tried to respect it. He knew he came off as crazy. Duncan was uncomfortable with the crazy so he would tone it down for him. That could be why Duncan didn't know that Logan was sitting in a hotel in L.A. waiting for his mother.
This is also a great point. Once Logan comes to Veronica for help, he says, resolutely, "Veronica, she's not dead." It's like he's daring her to disagree with him. You can see how much effort he's putting into everything he says to her in an effort to get her to see things from his perspective. He knows how he sounds, but he doesn't want her thinking he's crazy, too. I also just plain love that he came to her. He could have gone to any PI in town, but he goes to Veronica. Why? Because she's his last connection to the good old days. Duncan has now abandoned him in this, thinking he's nuts. And obviously Logan's other friends (such as Dick) aren't close ones. I think if he'd had close friends to support him in this, there's no way he ever would have gone to her. I mean, I love that he's hugging his coat to himself when she answers the door, too (Jason Dohring rocks, obviously - he looks SO vulnerable, yet still very defensive). He looks like he's got no one, and she's his last hope. Also, I love that Logan has the nerve to go to Veronica for help, after everything he's said/done to her. To us, her reactions track because we know she overheard the counselling session, but for him, there's no good reason that she isn't far more standoffish with him when he comes to her.
Back to what you were saying, I wish that the reason for Logan calling Duncan had been explained. I don't like that they just glossed over that, because I really can't imagine what Logan would have said to Duncan when he called. I mean, all we know is Logan informed Duncan that he was camped out in a hotel lobby in L.A., but Logan didn't tell him why. That just bugs me. What was the purpose of the call? I guess we're supposed to think Logan was just bored, but that seems odd to me. I don't think Logan would have called Duncan without a reason.
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It seems to me that Duncan played the same role in Logan's social life that his mother played in his family life. The parallels are in how Lilly treated Logan badly while Duncan just stayed out of it.
That's definitely an interesting point. I can understand Duncan's staying out of the Lilly/Logan relationship a lot more than Lynn's not doing anything about Aaron's abuse of Logan, though. With Lilly and Logan, I can understand Duncan telling himself that he had no business prying into their relationship. I think he must have been in a terrible position, really, for a lot of that. He's stuck with his sister and his best friend fighting all the time, and I'm guessing they were very much pulling him in two different directions. Plus, even if Duncan had tried to warn Logan away from Lilly at some point, Logan falls so deeply in love that I don't think it would have mattered. Honestly, I think that if Lilly had lived, there's even still a chance that if she decided at some point she wanted Logan back, she could have gotten him, even if the Aaron/Lilly affair had blown up. I think she held great power over him. I would hope that he would never have gone back to her, and that it really was OVER, like he told V on the beach (without even knowing about Aaron/Lilly). Lilly was extremely manipulative, though, and I think in her own twisted way, she saw Logan as hers. She could take him out and play with him whenever she wanted, and then she could put him back on the shelf when she was bored. It's really morbid to say it, but I think for Logan, Lilly's death really freed him from her.
Also, now that Logan knows what led to Lilly's death, I don't know how he's going to deal with that after having had her on a pedestal for so long. This also brings up questions, of course, of whether or not Duncan and Lilly knew about the abuse. If Lilly knew, she is of course an even worse person. If she didn't know, then I find that kind of surprising, considering that Lilly and Logan were in a sexual relationship. Also, though, it's hard for me to believe Duncan and Lilly knew because I have a hard time believing they would have done nothing if they were aware that Logan was getting cigarette burns, broken noses, and belt whippings on any sort of regular basis. I suppose it's definitely possible that they just chose to ignore it since Logan did. That's just really sad.
Back to the earlier point, though, with Lynn, I have very little patience with her for not doing something about the abuse. I don't believe she was still in love with Aaron. Therefore, her reasoning for not doing something was simply her love of money and probably also her not wanting her public image dragged through the mud (hey, whaddyaknow? That's why Aaron killed Lilly). I hate that those things mattered to her more than Logan. And it's also really sad to see how much he loved his mother regardless of this.
In addition, it's interesting for me that the Fab Four were really a family for Logan, so by going to Veronica for help with his mom, it was kind of like going home in a way. And rather than kicking him out, she was willing to help because by that time she knew more about his motivations for the way he had treated her.
So that's it for this post. I'll try to get to your other responses, soon. :)
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Logan likes to fight whatever is wrong. Veronica does too. Veronica is better at it because she always makes a plan while Logan just strikes out. Of course they were going to get together once they were given targets other than each other to strike at. Duncan just doesn't function that way and so it must have been quite a shock when he saw them together.
Ooh, I love that. And it just further shows, I think, how much more sense L/V makes than D/V. As we've already seen, Veronica hates the "stands idly by" Duncan. I also have a feeling that underneath it all, V had to like the way L handled himself both the times she ditched him re: the GHB and the cameras. The first time, he pursued her. He wouldn't just let it drop. He had to know what he'd done wrong and try to fix it. This would be very appealing to V, I think, considering that when Duncan ditched her, V didn't go after him and force him to explain. I think she probably always wished she had had the nerve to do that at that time, too. So then, flash forward to the fact that Logan did go after her after she ditched him on the boat. This showed how much he already cared about the relationship, and he wasn't going to let her do to him what Duncan did to her. The second time, after the cameras, Logan just let her be. He probably assumed that since things were going great until he left for drinks, he hadn't done anything to make her flee. Therefore, he knew he should just give her time. And I love that when she did come to him, he showed how hurt he was, but at the same time, he was quick to see the whole thing from her perspective and ready to move on from it. Such a good boyfriend, I think.
[V] just ignored [Lilly's bad traits] when they came up. That is exactly how Duncan behaves with the things he doesn't like.
This is a great point. And it further shows how V and Duncan used to make sense as a couple, but they no longer do. Veronica has hardened and now speaks her opinion and does what she wants to do. While V was breaking out of her shell, Duncan went off to live in denial land and really just closed in on himself. I think he became less outgoing and all that. In the Homecoming flashbacks, he seemed like a much more easy-going, cool guy who could have fun. He didn't seem to take things too seriously. That's so not the case most of the time now.
I hope that finding out about Aaron and Lilly (since I think Lilly was planning on telling Veronica) would have been enough to get Vintage Veronica to turn her back on Lilly. I think Veronica would have told Logan and begun avoiding Lilly. I think her morals would not have allowed her to maintain the Lilly friendship.
As for V going to be friends with Yolanda instead - well, Yolanda kind of bugs me. I mean, fine, I can buy that Logan was the one who kissed her, but it's not like she was helpless. I mean, if I was left alone with a friend's drunk boyfriend and he kissed me, no matter how much I liked him, I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't push him off. I'm just saying, regardless of who initiated the kiss, there was nothing stopping Yolanda from pulling back. She wouldn't even have had to make a big thing of it. She could've just laughed it off and said, "You're drunk, Logan." End of story. But she didn't. She kissed him back, and from what it looked like, she really enjoyed the whole thing. That's what bugs me. And because of that, I get Lilly not wanting to be friends with her anymore. Now, from the other side of things, I figure Lilly is way messed up - telling Yolanda he's all hers, even in a flippant way, and "looking" for a new boyfriend, was definitely not the type of thing to give Yolanda the idea that she needed to stay away from Lilly's man. But, obviously Logan was still Lilly's boyfriend, so not kissing him rules still apply. The thing that really bugs me is how Lilly must've made Logan suffer for that kiss, when I figure there's a good chance Lilly had already cheated on Logan in far worse ways.
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You know I think your right. V was so angry at first but she went back to him after she found out he didn't rape her. They went right back to where they were before the GHB reveal. They weren't ignoring it either they did talk it out first. This is probably what impressed her about him. He was actively listening and being supportive. Although we didn't get to see it I think that Duncan would have also been a good listener and very supportive (as long as it isn't something he is emotionally involved with). Leo and Troy were also very attentive. This must be on her list of good boyfriend traits. (It's on mine.) The GHB thing was an extreme way to test that. She also called him once she found out his didn't kill Lilly. I'd like to think that she was planning on going back to him again.
And it further shows how V and Duncan used to make sense as a couple, but they no longer do.
Of course, V and Duncan both changed after Lilly's death but while V broke her shell Duncan went further in. They both romanticized their time together. V has realized that she 'isn't that girl anymore'. Duncan may have noticed the changes in V but hasn't realized their significance. He thinks she still is 'that girl'. The only time they hung out socially the last year that I can think of was at the poker game. That's more intimate than talking by the lockers but not by much. There were enough other things going on that I doubt V and Duncan said more than 'pass the chips' to each other.
Now that Lilly's killer has been caught Duncan, Logan, and V are all in for another change. How they'll change I don't know. (I suspect some things form spoilers.) Duncan and V don't make a good couple now but he might change into someone who would make a good couple with V. If he does then the triangle they are aiming for would be far more interesting to watch. I still want her with Logan though.
I hope that finding out about Aaron and Lilly (since I think Lilly was planning on telling Veronica) would have been enough to get Vintage Veronica to turn her back on Lilly.
I want to think that too, but I don't. Vintage V was more of an avoider. As long as she wasn't confronted with the fallout of the affair I don't think it would have ruined her friendship with Lilly. It would have put cracks in so that VV would start to take a more serious look at Lilly's behavior. She seemed like the sort that would stand by a friend even if she doesn't support their behavior. Weevil is a good example of this. She doesn't care that he is car jacking as long as it doesn't affect her.
As for V going to be friends with Yolanda instead - well, Yolanda kind of bugs me.
Your right about everything you said about Yolanda, Lilly, Logan, and the kiss. The thing is fab four had just broken up and Lilly was the only one VV was still on good terms with. If VV was going to tell Lilly she was being unreasonable about any of this she would need someone else in her corner. VV was not the lone wolf that she would become. So even though Yolanda did kiss Lilly's boyfriend and was wrong to do so VV would have hung out with her if she couldn't be friends with Lilly.
The thing that really bugs me is how Lilly must've made Logan suffer for that kiss, when I figure there's a good chance Lilly had already cheated on Logan in far worse ways.
Lilly was not the sort of girl who should have had a long-term boyfriend. I think it only lasted because every time she'd kick him to the curb he'd crawl right back. He may have gotten her all the party favors she could want but he just couldn't hold her attention. She seems the sort who only wants things until she has them. She wasn't devoted to him at all but he was still hers. If she had lived she would have gotten him back once she was done with Aaron.
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I really have major problems with Lilly. She just makes me really mad. She had all this charisma, and the ability to draw people to herself, and this sparkling personality, and she used it all in terrible ways. Manipulating people, messing around with Weevil, sleeping with her on again, off again boyfriend's dad... She really cared about herself far more than anyone else in her life. She was incredibly selfish. Interesting how her great undoing was when she let herself become involved with Aaron, who was also an incredibly selfish, big-headed person.
I also find it interesting how early on in season 1, Logan has pretty much taken a page from Lilly in that way. He had become very self-centered, and was using his charisma, personality, charm, wit, etc. to tear people down and make them feel as terrible as he did deep down. I guess I find it easier to forgive Logan than Lilly, because Lilly didn't have the reasons Logan had for acting the way she did. I mean, her parents weren't the greatest. Boo hoo. I think Logan must have had a worse family life than Lilly back in the Fab Four days, because his dad beats him! Lilly's parents just favored Duncan. And yet my guess is that Logan just made the Fab Four his second family, and did his best to ignore his biological family, while Lilly just spent her time moping and whining about her family and doing whatever she could to upset her mom. Logan's reasons for acting as he did are far better than any Lilly had - 1)Logan was acting that way because of how much pain he was in. He didn't know how to deal, and he lashed out at people. And we saw how bad he really felt about his behavior. In ep 1.12 guidance cousellor - he admits (in a roundabout way) that he knows he is projecting his anger onto Veronica unfairly, and that truly, he also blames himself and Lilly for Lilly's death. Veronica is just the convenient punching bag. That's also the moment that Veronica is able to see what has really been going on with Logan beneath the surface, and she can finally start to change her attitude/opinion of him. Also, 2) I think Logan is really sorry for what a jerk he was to Veronica earlier in season 1. And I think Veronica did take the brute of Logan's OPJness, so that means quite a bit.
The thing with Aaron would have upset Lilly's Veronica but then I think she would just ignore it until the next bad thing Lilly did. Eventually Veronica would have left Lilly but not without being force to confront Lilly's dark side. Lilly was really that fun.
As much as I wanna think VV had the nerve to leave Lilly if the Aaron thing came out, you're probably right. VV was weak, and Lilly was manipulative, so yeah.
I SOOOO want Logan to have as many scenes with CC as possible. Please let him live with Dick and Beaver, PLEASE! I love the snarky possiblities there. They could play off each other sooo well, I think. CC was sitting by Jason at the VM Comicon thing. Perhaps a good sign? I can hope. I really want scenes between them. So much.
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As you should, she was very selfish. She treated all of her loved ones, except V, badly. I see her problems with her parents due to personality conflicts and the fact they were actually trying to parent her. It may have seemed unfair to her that she would get into more trouble than Duncan for doing the same thing but it wasn't because her parents knew their children well and understood exactly who was responsible for what. If she had lived I don't know that she would have ever learned to behave better. She was too involved in herself to see any of the damage she inflicted on others.
Logan can be self centered and cruel but he also has shown empathy and remorse, two things Lilly never had. Also, as cruel as he was to V and others I don't think he was ever as bad as Lilly was. Only Aaron was worse than Lilly.
I SOOOO want Logan to have as many scenes with CC as possible.
Can you just image if CC tries to be maternal. They better have scenes together.
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Logan and Wallace playing video games would be great. Veronica could be there for some reason, and she could be really bored and sick of them playing the game and ignoring her. And then Logan could teach her to play. So cute.
I agree that Wallace could be a really great friend for Logan. I could be wrong, but I just don't see the writers letting that happen, though. I think they don't want Logan to have a really solid, normal, healthy life. They want plenty of angst, and the fewer good ties Logan has, the easier it is for them to write that. Wallace is going to be a little busy with another new character next season (hint hint on a spoiler), so that plus his relationship with V may be all they focus on with him. I do really want Logan and Wallace scenes, though, so I'm still hoping for some.
You're right that Keith normally wouldn't be threatening to Logan. However, Logan is so incredibly into Veronica (I think he's probably already in love with her), that if things are going well with them, I can see Logan being very concerned about how he is perceived by Keith. He knows that Keith is the most important person in the world to Veronica. He knows that Keith's opinion of him will weigh heavily on Veronica, and he knows it could definitely affect her opinion of him. Therefore, I think Logan will probably be on his best behavior whenever he is around Keith. He won't want anything to come up that could jeapardize what he has with V, because their relationship will probably be the most important thing to him.
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Keith, because he is not stupid, would probably realize that the only way he could influence Logan's behavior is by convincing him he could influence Veronica's. Logan may feel that V could be highly influenced by Keith. She gave up her whole life style to support him. Logan has never seen her go against her father he may not think that she would. Even if V tells him that's not the case Logan would probably try to behave for Keith. This would be especially true if Logan makes him his own father figure. Having approval of a father figure that he respects would be a huge thing for Logan. If, for some reason, Keith comes at this heavy handed then Logan would behave the opposite. Logan can't help but fight when threatened.
Splitting up the post was a good idea. I was able to organize my thoughts much quicker.
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