Torchwood thoughts

[neadods]

I've been offline for over a day, and it's a day that had a season finale in it and a season opener that a lot of my friends watch. Wish me luck, I'm tackling the friends list... hopefully I'll get through before the second explosion of the Who premiere!

Comments

[thanatos_kalos]

I agree that the thing with Jack's brother being violentlypsychotic was not the best way to go-- something more like what happened in 'Adrift,' with non-violent madness would've been better. I've got to disagree with you on a couple of points, though; I like Captain John as slightly more sane, though since he's still alive I'm virtually certain his sociopathic tendencies will return with the next crazy scheme for money.

But I don't think Tosh's death or anything else had anything to with her being a minority. I think that's beside the point, that her ethnic background is a part of her, though I understand why people get upset and perceive it as being a conscious or unconscious bias. I remember Joss Whedon saying once that he didn't kill the character of Tara because she was a lesbian, and he didn't not kill her off because she was a lesbian. While I know that there is a certain amount of naivete to the realities of political correctness inherent in that-- a naivete that I openly admit I share, though I'm obviously aware racism and other prejudices exist, and loathe that they do-- I don't believe that any consideration beyond character should dictate what happens.

IMHO only--- let the flaming begin.

[neadods]

I'd say it was beside the point except for the fact that every single minority in every version of the show just coincidentally has crappy things happen to them.

And if the rumors are true that they're making room for Martha, then it has a very ugly undertone of suggesting that only one minority character is sufficient, and two are too many. Note that Tosh already had next to no interaction with Martha.

[thanatos_kalos]

But all of the characters have crappy things happen to them, no matter their backgrounds. All characters generally have crappy things happen, otherwise the drama would be dull.

And I think 'introducing Martha' = 'only one minority character' is reading far too much into the 'text.' Martha and Tosh wouldn't necessarily have much contact; she was working mostly with Owen on the medical matters, and she and Jack had a pre-existing relationship. Tacking a scene in just so two characters who happen to be minorites can interact wouldn't make sense (and would probably feel completely tacked on).

[moropus]

In order to qualify as a minority, a group has to be out-numbered. So it makes sense to only have one in a cast this size.

"Horrible things happen here!" is a theme in this show. Owen-not a minority-being a zombie-horrible. That stunt Suzy(?) pulled on Gwen with the Resurrection Gauntlet-horrible. Jack-dying a zillion times in pain-seeing all his normal friends grow old and die-horrible. Ianto's Cyber girlfriend-horrible.

[thanatos_kalos]

Good points, all. :)

I had a further thought-- if we're basing political agendas as being expressed by who gets killed, then we can also see a show that is set in Cardiff, with a Welsh executive producer, as having killed its two English cast members-- the English minority, as far as the cast of characters goes (I'm including Rhys as a regular). By that logic, we can read an anti-English bias.

I seriously doubt the above case is true, but the same facts (the characters who were killed) can be used to 'prove' an entirely different agenda. Facts are always subject to interpretation, but I honestly think that you have to extrapolate WAY too much out of too few facts to get racism, anti-English sentiment, or anything else. If you look hard enough for something, you'll find it, even if it doesn't exist; this is something we get lectured about ad infinitum as Ph.D candidates, and I think it's true in almost everything.

[neadods]

Look at my other posts, going all the way back to "Mickey, Martha, and the Message That Doesn't Belong in Who." There is a demonstrably provable canonical dismissal/subjugation of minority characters across the board in the Whoniverse, and this is just one more example. Even with the few minorities we've seen in Torchwood, they are disproportionately treated the worst. Including and especially that the white death toll is 25%, while the minority death toll is now 100% - Suzie and Tosh.

You don't have to look hard. That's the part that pisses me off!

[thanatos_kalos]

Where is the post you're referencing? Do you have a date or link, so I can find it?

I do have to say that I'm not sure I agree with counting Suzie as a minority; she was played by a South Asian actress, but based on the admittedly single bit of evidence of her last name, I'd have thought she was of Italian extraction.

You don't have to look hard. That's the part that pisses me off!

I honestly don't see it (though I haven't found the post you're referencing yet). Assuming that doesn't change my mind, I think we may have to agree to disagree. :(

[neadods]

My link here. It was repeated on lifeonmartha and the topic has been discussed a great deal on the anti-racism comm deadbrowwalking, not to mention the private LJs of several people, including (off the top of my head) nostalgia_lj, spiralsheep, and more who aren't on my f-list. Nos hasn't tagged, but check Spiral's "Doctor who" tag. Nos garnered several trolls on the subject, including one infamous guy with a sexually-oriented screenname who came in, demanded that we stop discussing the subject, and announced that women are too stupid to understand TV. kateorman first tried to shut the conversation down, then said that she wanted to study it in a comm she started (and which originally had a post telling black commentors that she wasn't talking to them) and now tries to set the standards as to how it is discussed, usually leaving in a huff saying that some people are determined to be haters... ask lizbee. Racial subtext and how certain subtexts always happen to certain characters has been going on since the end of last season.

For instance... let's take maid costumes. Both Rose and Martha and her family all ended up in maids costumes. Well, if it happened to Rose, too, it's just one of those things, right?

Except that when Rose ended up in a maid's/lunchlady costume, she expressly got scenes where she got to express how demeaning she found it, and the worst thing that happened was her alt!verse mother threatening to fire her. Also, only Rose (and Astrid) wore such costumes... Jackie and to date Donna never have. So not every character, not every member of that racial group, not ever family member.

Whereas, within 13 episodes, every single member of Martha's family including herself ends up in one, and under circumstances where anything other than cheerful compliance merits instant punishment - Martha at the school, her family under the Master. Every member of that family. Every member of that racial group (Mickey, as Martha's father, being relegated to mechanics, although in Mickey's case it's by choice.)

So maid's costumes "just happen" if they're needed by plot. But the circumstances around those costumes do not "just happen" and they are weighted with major racial freight.

For another instance.... there are happy white/white couples and there are happy black/white couples, but there are no happy black/black couples. Furthermore, in many of the black/white couples, the black character is running after the white one offering devoted affection and getting distracted secondhand disinterest from the white one. Rose, always treated Mickey as a second-class backup if Jack and the Doctor aren't there. The Doctor, treating Martha as second-best to the point that she leaves him over it (and yet he was over Rose enough to invite Donna along even though Donna was so soon that she was handling Rose's clothing.) Martha's father running after his blonde golddigger.

And to loop back to Torchwood, Tosh running after Owen, who preferred in the premiere to rape a white woman rather than look at Tosh, and would, throughout the rest of his run, only have sex with white women.

[thanatos_kalos]

*reads*

That is interesting, though I'm afraid I still see these things as more a function of character, rather than race, i.e., Ten being so screwed up emotionally after both Rose's loss and Donna's rejection that he's not interested in taking chances. I agree that the whole 'Mickey-the-idiot' thing did get annoying rapidly, though, again, I think that's more Nine seeing a potential rival and Rose devaluing her home life. One could also argue that it represents the potential of the Everyman to become a hero. Also, I wish you wouldn't demean mechanics; I know quite a lot of them and, while they're perhaps not as high on the social ladder as others, they're some of the most technically-oriented, intelligent people I know.

As for the rest, I understand the points you're making, but I think we disagree on a fundamental point; I believe that nothing should ever get in the way of character, and that includes either doing something to a character because of the ethnic background of the actor playing them, or not doing something to a character because of the ethnic background of the actor playing them. That's how I interpret what I see; characters behaving in a way that is true to their natures, and if that involves a character putting a group of people in servants' costumes because it's in line with what the character would do, then that's the story. I respect your opinion, but I just don't share it.

[neadods]

"Horrible things happen here!" is a theme in this show.

White Owen gets to be a happy zombie part of the team - Indian Suzie, also resurrected, is evil and has to be shot down. White Ianto's left to mourn, but it's his black girlfriend who is half-cyberized, half-eaten by a pterodactyl, and shot to death by the entire team... having in her turn taken out an Asian scientist and a white pizza girl. White Andy shows up in all the cop stories. Black head detective I-can't-even-remember-her-name-because-she-only-shows-up-once shows up once.

Horrible things are happening disproportionately to very specific people in the cast. I can name plenty of times white characters have walked away from the show at the end. I can't name a single minority character who has survived meeting Torchwood, up to and including their own personnel. Counting both seasons, it's two Asians and one caucasian down. Oh, and the two Asians were both in their own way traitors, Suzie having played the entire team in her ploy and Tosh having been established at the last minute as a serial traitor (to the government in Fragments, to Torchwood in Greeks), whereas Owen has been working off his first-episode rape with good behavior ever since.

Considering that the minorities are a small part of the cast, they are soaking up a disproportionately large part of the "horrible things."