2x10: Chained
Heh... well, I'll just join the party now, then in stead of waiting until tomorrow... ;-)
Mmmm... Tony undercover, worried!Gibbs... there's no bad here :-D
Ya know, the first time around, I didn't recognize Tony in that opening? Made for a very confusing start for me... *scratches head*
Heh - the VW for sale. Nope, can't picture Gibbs in a VW ( Read more... )
Mmmm... Tony undercover, worried!Gibbs... there's no bad here :-D
Ya know, the first time around, I didn't recognize Tony in that opening? Made for a very confusing start for me... *scratches head*
Heh - the VW for sale. Nope, can't picture Gibbs in a VW ( Read more... )
And I agree with you entirely on #2... No, I don't think, once Tony is safe, once the crisis is over, that he'd want to talk. I'm just not so sure it's a big issue once the crisis is over, and he gets a little time to deal with it on his own.
Also, I think maybe our differences in opinion has something to do with this: I don't see 'want' and 'need' as separate as you do. Yes, to talk to someone would be good for him... but you'd never, ever get him to admit that. I see him akin to my aunt, who's as stubborn as they come. She has this tendency to get grouchy when she gets tired, but you just try to get her to take a nap during the day. Even if you do manage to get her to do what's good for her, she'll never, ever admit it. She'll just be stubbornly grouchy that you made her do something she didn't want to do, and maintain that she didn't need it.
This, I feel, is interesting, psychologically speaking, but it's a whole 'nother thing.
What I see, is that they have different ways of handling Gibbs, when he's under stress. So far, I can't remember anyone but Kate trying to 'handle' Gibbs, while he's on a hot case (let's face it, when Gibbs is on a hot case, his only objective is to solve it) - and Tony being without backup, in the hands of a criminal is definitely a hot case.
Ducky will talk about Gibbs' problems, and just assume Gibbs listens - it's not like he's not used to doing all the talking.
McGee will duck his head, work harder, and pray to God Gibbs doesn't notice him.
Abby will go on like nothing happened.
Tony is interesting, to me. He won't bother Gibbs while they're on a hot case. Mostly, if they're on a hot case, Tony will even be supremely professional (like he was in Bete Noir). What Tony will do, is what he did in Reveille. If it isn't a hot case (and nobody was sure it was a hot case, at that time), he'll joke. Sometimes inappropriately - but always with the end-result of making Gibbs blow up at Tony - or laugh. Both serving to relieve Gibbs' emotional stress under controlled circumstances.
So, yeah, if you ask me who gets the better end-result, I'm going to go with Tony, because he gets Gibbs to vent some emotions - whereas Kate didn't get anywhere.
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lol. I hope your aunt doesn't give too much trouble!
I agree - talking is something Gibbs would ever admit to want or to need, but even if he would complain, it doesn't mean it wouldn't do him good. It's the same thing as when my parents made me learn to play the piano and eat vegetables. I whine about them, even now, but they're necessary and beneficial even if they're not what I want.
So, yeah, if you ask me who gets the better end-result, I'm going to go with Tony, because he gets Gibbs to vent some emotions - whereas Kate didn't get anywhere.
I'm not sure simply venting solves problems. There are two ways to get rid of a bomb: one is defuse it, and the other is to apply enough pressure (like light the fuse) until it explodes. In the second, someone ends up getting hurt, and in the case of emotions, that explosion actually doesn't help.
Tony definitely knows how to distract, but not to resolve. When he makes one laugh, it's a nice momentary distraction. His attempts are to get one's mind off of whatever's happening, either with a laugh or by redirecting anger onto himself, are well-meaning but don't solve the problem. The original problem is still there - the worry and the stress over the first problem are still unsolved.
Particularly when Gibbs yells, I'm really not sure it fixes anything - it's actually just one more thing on his plate that he has to deal with. In cases such as these McGee's method of staying out his way would cause less stress. Redirecting anger on to oneself doesn't actually relieve stress; it only saves the person it was originally directed at, and guys like Ari don't deserve to have anger redirected away from them.
Kate may not have gotten Gibbs to talk, but she's a bit of a check. When Gibbs says things that are mean, she calls him on it. After the mean remark to Tony that had Kate telling Gibbs quite seriously he was a bastard, Gibbs says only one more thing while Tony and Paula are on the outs, but then doesn't interfere with Paula and Tony at the end or ever again. In "Enigma", Tony is upset at Gibbs' behavior but doesn't think he'll be able to help. Kate is the most adamant, though the others help, and Gibbs ends up accepting their aid. Later Kate again calls him on grouchy behavior in "Split Decision", and it's clear he remembers it (he mentions it later).
As for handling, Kate isn't the only one. Tom Morrow does it successfully (I believe this is why people miss him, particularly when Shepard first showed up). It's clear Morrow disagrees with Gibbs on more than one occasion yet can still maintain Gibbs' respect and cooperation - but Morrow chooses his battles well and wisely.
Likewise, Ducky does interfere during cases. In "Enigma" when Kate says they have to do something, it's Ducky who tells them exactly how. And in "Mind Games" Ducky and Gibbs have a little raised-voice match over his behavior with his third wife and the Boone case.
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Taking your bomb-analogy, the fact that there are two ways to get rid of a bomb presupposes it can be defused. And that becomes difficult if you take an intelligent bomb (like the one on Starship Titanic) that doesn't want to be defused.
I think, maybe, we're talking about two different things. Or at least, seeing it from two different viewpoints. See, I don't think Gibbs being under emotional stress while they're on a hot case (that is, for a limited time), is necessarily a problem. It's not healthy for him, physically or emotionally - but I don't think you can be a cop without stress.
It's when it takes longer, like the months he spent chasing Ari, or the Boone case, it becomes a problem. And I'm really not sure you can solve that problem without some heavy-duty psychological help, because that's who Gibbs is.
And I'm still saying that Tony redirecting some of Gibbs' anger onto himself helps. It helps Gibbs - which is what Tony is trying to do. And I'm pretty sure (at least I hope) he's aware of the cost, and willing to pay the price. And it aims at solving Gibbs' immediate problem - has nothing to do with redirecting anger away from Ari, because really? Gibbs is only going to get more pissed at Ari as the chase lengthens. But the thing is: Ari won't get the benefit of that anger until Gibbs catches him - and in order to catch him, Gibbs needs to get rid of enough anger to be productive - which brings me back to the way his team works with him.
Yes, Kate does good things, she really, really does. And she's a valuable member of the team. And she's good at helping (well, good at helping everyone but Tony, usually, but that's a debate we've had elsewhere). She's even good at helping Gibbs. I just, again, doesn't equal that with a capability of solving the problem. Yes, she wants to try - but she wants to do it the way women usually do. By talking about emotions. I don't know a whole lot of guys who wants to do that, voluntarily.
I guess this is my point, then: Kate does things the way a woman does. Which is fine - except she's dealing with a man, here. I'm all for equality of the sexes and whatnot - but the fact even I can't get around, is that men and women are different. Yes, Gibbs needs to be reigned in sometimes. Morrow does that admirably (Jen doesn't do that at all - which is a problem), Ducky does it as well, although more one-sidedly (like I said, he's used to talking to his "clients" - talking to a Gibbs who isn't going to answer or contribute to the conversation - not a real issue). Kate usually makes other people aware of the problem, which is a valuable trait, and then tries to solve it - or make others solve it.
But the thing where I think we see things differently the most, is that I think what's missing the most in Gibbs' life, is support. Not somebody who'll want to fix him - but someone who'll help him - because I will bet my left eye that there'll be a difference to Gibbs. What you're saying (and I get it, I really, really do), is that Kate is a good match for Gibbs because she'll try to fix him, solve his problems and make him healthier. As for me, I think that Tony is a good match (not perfect, oh, no) for Gibbs, is that he'll help him, try to lessen the impact of Gibbs' problems and just be there for him, to lean on when he needs to.
Whew... I hope at least some of that made sense...
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That is very true. I assume, though, that Gibbs does not like being wound up constantly and prefers resolution. I believe his problem is that he wants resolution HIS way (he wants a lot of things HIS way), but I personally believe he'd settle for a resolution that isn't necessarily his original plan if he feels it's still acceptable to him.
I don't think Gibbs being under emotional stress while they're on a hot case (that is, for a limited time), is necessarily a problem. It's not healthy for him, physically or emotionally - but I don't think you can be a cop without stress.
Yeah, I agree with this - about short-term stress. It's adrenaline. I also agree that the long-term stress is unhealthy on the body. But I guess I'm really referring not to physical, mental, and even emotional stress but to the reaction/response to it...I'm afraid I wasn't clear.
Everyone gets stressed - Ducky, Abby, Tony, McGee, Kate, Ziva - but it's the emotional response to it that's different. Abby and Tony tend to deal with jokes in the temporary situation, and Abby will sometimes later talk it out. McGee talks (like in "Witness" and in "Probie").
Gibbs, however, gets tense and sometimes angry. It's dangerous enough in the moment to let emotions take over; understandable, but still neither wise nor helpful. A temporary joke, like Tony provides, during the stress of a case can help defuse it a little, but Gibbs never deals with it; so when a similar situation comes up, he's struggling with present and past emotions.
What I admired about McGee in "Witness" was his clear-headedness even after the witness was killed. He talks it out and is able to work on the case again. When he finds the guy who killed her, he chases him, but he doesn't come anywhere close to shooting him in a body part or anything. He hadn't even taken Gibbs' suggestion that if he wanted to shoot him he should have shot the perp while the guy was running. McGee is angry in that moment, but it hasn't been accumulating, and so his clear handling of the case would permit a clean end to it (no problems of agent brutality or anything during the trial).
I believe venting was once considered a healthy way to deal with anger, but a lot of recent studies are suggesting otherwise - that voicing it will often make the person angrier than he was before. They even suggest that the usual woman thing - to call up a girlfriend and complain - will often compound the problem rather than actually solve it. It's the venting rather than trying to work it out emotionally. Many suggest actually something like a walk or a drive for a certain period, and then coming back to talk. (And they were speaking in the context of married couples, men and women.)
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You're right - Kate totally does things in a woman way. But two things here that I think I disagree with: (1) that the male/female differences are such that they require different solutions and (2) all differences are OK.
I believe, first, both men and women have strong emotional responses and women can get as angry/violent as men. I believe this may have as much to do with personality, which is non-gender specific. Men and women may react differently - men will go to a punching bag, and women to complain to a girlfriend - but both are still venting. If Kate had offered an avenue to let Gibbs complain (not that he would, but if), I wouldn't agree with it at all.
If so, then perhaps the solution to a non-gender specific problem could be non-gender specific. It doesn't even necessarily require talking as much. When McGee talked in "Witness" he never talked very long - nor was it in a specific psychiatric setting. I believe in some senses that the difference may not be as great as we often think.
The second thing would be that Gibbs' way of dealing with anger and Kate's way of dealing with anger are both acceptable. In this I'm afraid I'd have to disagree.
With apologies to Austen, but there is in both genders a tendency to some particular evil, a natural defect. Women talk out emotions and men don't, but doesn't mean that both are healthy ways of doing things. Women tend to gossip and men don't, but that doesn't mean that both are healthy ways of communicating; gossip is extremely damaging.
It's important, I believe, to understand a particularly tendency to do something (like not talking about emotions), but understanding and respecting it doesn't mean the same as tolerating it or letting it go on.
But the thing where I think we see things differently the most, is that I think what's missing the most in Gibbs' life, is support.
I believe we agree on the support, but perhaps we disagree on what constitutes "support".
I don't believe Kate is trying to fix Gibbs. If she were, she would be trying to get him to change his haircut rather than teasing him about it; she'd be trying to get him to be technology proficient rather than going with Tony and totally enabling him with regards to his PDA ("See No Evil"); she'd be trying to get him to change his work hours, to give up coffee, to stop slapping people in the head. She's not doing any of this. She doesn't even tell Gibbs to stop bringing Abby all that soda.
The healthy food thing, lol, that's most likely "fixing".
What Kate is trying to do for Gibbs is prevent him from hurting himself, and to me that is actual support. If the damage were physical, like someone were cutting himself/herself, or doing drugs, or like those crazy parents who feed their kids junk until they're so big they can't move - support would NOT be letting him/her continue - that's enabling, not supporting. Even a loud, bit harsh interference would be considered more supportive.
Gibbs' hurting himself is not physical, so it's less noticeable - though we know from Ducky already that his personality has been changing, so there's already physical manifestations of his problem. It requires a healthy interference, not simply a redirection of anger to a different object.
Tony allows Gibbs to continue on. I don't believe it's that Tony doesn't care; it's extremely clear that he worries and doesn't think this is a good thing. I believe his hesitation is either (1) he doesn't feel that it's in his position to say anything (2) he feels that as long as Gibbs doesn't kill someone (within bounds), he's doing OK. Which is why I believe Tony loves and cares for Gibbs, but he doesn't care for Gibbs the way two equals care for each other. Even Fornell and Gibbs are more likely to feel free enough to call each other on stuff. This is why, to me, Tony and Gibbs' relationship seems rather a younger-older situation.
Perhaps our differences reside more in whether or not we think Gibbs' emotional responses are acceptable...? Or what we consider to be support?
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