Why Universal Health Care Is Consistent with Minimal Government

Nov 05, 2009 15:08

I'm sensitive to arguments that government should be small; that it should protect individual freedoms rather than supporting institutions; that the best policy is often for governments to remain uninvolved unless they're protecting their constituency from outside forces (and not from ourselves). I'm especially sympathetic to this notion because of ( Read more... )

ethics, self-determination, politics, what foster is actually thinking all day, philosophy, psychology

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rindi November 6 2009, 00:24:33 UTC
The Constitution is a document of negative rights. Yes, many people are bad at knowing what they want, what they will enjoy, and what's good for them. So what, no one can know all the relevant information (and let's not exclude the government from this category). For now, no one is any better a choice for someone to make decisions for other people than anyone else. I'm glad we agree on that point.

But negative rights are rights to be left alone. They are rights not to be subject to an action of another human being. It says nothing about disease.

Being endowed with certain unalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is not the same as saying that the government's job is to protect us from everything that may harm or attack us. The military and the police are designed to protect us from people (countries, fellow citizens) who don't want to leave us alone (how well they do that job is a subject for another discussion). I don't see how it follows that the government is then also justified in ( ... )

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samjolnir November 6 2009, 00:56:48 UTC
You won't trust the government with determining what's right for people's health, that's understandable. Government bureaucracy is an over-bloated and frightening beast, we can all agree on that. But do you trust a group of crooked businessmen out to make a hefty profit off of other people's suffering with determining what's right for people's health?

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rindi November 6 2009, 01:31:17 UTC
Give me concrete facts on how much determining what's right these businessmen do and then I'll argue.

I'll note that the profit margin isn't the biggest issue (see the third comment to that article in particular, and googling the topic brings up a pile of articles on the same thing); and some organizations are even nonprofits (which, granted, can still pay high salaries). I agree that the US health care system is not the best out there. There are very many ways that it could be improved. But I'm not convinced that the current universal health care bill will improve anything.

(And hey, it takes an X Prize to motivate some people to improve health care.)

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ncarraway November 6 2009, 02:20:41 UTC
Ok, here we go. The reason I made this post, by the way, is that until I had this idea a few weeks ago, I'd been struggling with a real crisis of politic. I like the idea of universal health care, but is it justified? (Sorry, Finer, but I can't accept it without investigating its premises.) When this occurred to me, I meant to post it; the link in your post reminded me ( ... )

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ncarraway November 6 2009, 02:21:09 UTC

As for horror stories of Canada, for every two horrors I hear, someone else tells me that the stories are scurrilous lies. A little digging around shows that some of that second group appear to be working from studies conducted with government funding (so I skipped those - if I can't find a less compromised source, I have my answer already!), but I found this article from someone who says she's experienced both sides of the border. I'm not convinced by all of her points, and, much like the example article you posted, she doesn't actually cite any sources ... but that's journalism for you. She does address some of the necessary financial points, including pointing out the distressing bureaucracy surrounding our own system. One thing I can say for sure about a single-player system is that I'd expect its behind-the-scenes mechanisms to be more efficient. She also points out that the worst waits in the Canadian system are in rural areas. I had forgotten, until reading that, that half of Canada is more like Alaska than like the ( ... )

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rindi November 6 2009, 04:01:16 UTC
When I mentioned the horror stories of Canada, I did note that some Canadians are perfectly happy with the system. If you ask enough people their opinions on any subject, you will find some who are both intensely dissatisfied and incredibly vocal about it. So there will be horror stories no matter where you look, regardless of whether that's the norm or just an anomaly.

Still drafting a response to the bit about the premise of the argument.

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rindi November 6 2009, 04:54:31 UTC
I don't claim to be an expert on this subject by any means. I'm kinda sorta researching this and making up the argument as I go along, so there are probably holes. Please, drive a truck through them.

The reason that it's meaningful to distinguish between being left alone by agents versus non-agents (and Wikipedia is far from the only source that makes that distinction), is because the government's job isn't to protect us from agents. The government's job is to protect our rights (specifically, to protect negative rights, not to necessarily provide positive rights, though there are areas where this distinction isn't so black and white). Granted, this is a matter of opinion (people who agree tend to be on the Libertarian end of the spectrum).

If you accept that the government's job is to protect us from agents, then I agree: there's no reason why non-agents should be excluded. The government is obligated to take action: to make sure that people are cared for when they're sick or injured, to inform people of the hazards of smoking and ( ... )

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rindi November 6 2009, 04:02:50 UTC
About the bill:
This specific bill is a good 1900 pages long. Here's a brief article with a link to the full text, if you're curious enough to want to wade through any of it.

Among other things, I've read that the bill:
- will create 111 new federal bureaucracies
- raise taxes (which I hear is a bad idea during a recession); one is a "soak the rich" tax
- will require calorie counts on some menus of restaurant chains and on vending machines
- while making it illegal to classify pregnancy as a pre-existing condition, it may also make it more difficult to get an abortion if one needs/wants one (but it depends on who you ask as to whether the bill is ultimately pro-choice or pro-life) (decent discussion hereSome of the most prominent arguments I've heard against the plan do revolve around how expensive it will be (because, e.g., there is no competition and nothing to drive prices down) and the fact that it will raise taxes. If taxes are raised, less income will be generated and the government will get less revenue. Because clinics and ( ... )

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