1: 'Go back to being General of my nuts!' - a tongue twister or a Freudian slip? Umm...I love you for posting this question. Tom was having so much fun with Miles in that scene. Loved when Tom was like, I don't wanna watch your lips move when you read. Hee. Honestly I think this line came from pent-up frustration with his superiors in the Militia over the years. Did Tom respect Miles as a general? Yes. In Love Boat, he said it was good to be working with professionals again. But I also get the sense that he thinks Miles is not as smart as he is (and Miles picks up on this, hence HIS line at the end of Love Boat when he declares he's smarter than Neville, sounding rather like an 8 year old on the playground.) Despite the respect Tom had for Miles, he always feels personally betrayed by Miles since Miles defected. Back in Soul Train why Miles deserted was one of the first things Tom asked him even though they were locked in hand-to-hand combat. I think Tom was genuinely curious there (because he himself was doubting Bass) but was also working through some feelings of betrayal. I think at this point Tom thinks he is the best candidate for general of the militia. General of my nuts was just a juvenile slight.
Also on a related note, Tom takes the first opportunity he gets with Bass to vent frustration with Bass's leadership. Again we hear a homoerotic insult. Sense a pattern ya'll? Maybe TOM needs to come out of the closet. Kidding.
2: Is Neville a misogynist? This gets to the complicated question of Julia for me. He appears to love Julia deeply - to the point where Miles knows she's Tom's Achilles' heel. What are some of the reasons people think Tom's a misogynist?
My question about Tom-Julia is: Is she the real power behind Tom? We haven't seen her in awhile. Has she been directing Tom's actions behind the scenes? Did she really get hypothermia? How much of our big bad is she? I'm still impressed by her when Miles had her by the throat. "He's bluffing." She was ice cold, baby. Tom caved - not her.
3: He apes being a religious man - is that real or part of an act? I think he likes rules, order, self-restraint, so religion appeals to him as a system. I doubt he's a man of "faith" if you feel me, but I can see him using religion for his personal and public devices. Tom is remarkably patient, methinks.
4: We see a few of Neville's faces over the course of the show - but who does Neville really want to be? Tom isn't someone I've spent a lot of time analyzing. He does seem to want his son's loyalty and admiration. He loves his wife. So there is definitely a family component to him. I'm not altogether convinced that being head of the Militia is what he ultimately wants or what Julia wants for him...thoughts?
5: Anything you want to address? My Julia behind Tom questions, please. Also have the strong personalities of Tom and Julia eclipsed Jason? He seems so puny and wishy washy in comparison (probably best saved for Jason week)? Can someone analyze the Tom-Jason relationship for me?
Also, I used to think that Tom was the appropriate arch-rival for Miles, but after seeing them work together, I'm not so sure now. Should Tom end up as the big bad (or perhaps Julia behind him as the puppeteer)?
Religion - I think Tom...adopted the facade of a pious man? Not necessarily consciously, but he remade himself from scratch post-Blackout and I think that being the scripture-quoting man of letters was part of that? It makes him look deep and spiritual, it gives him authority by contagion and the Bible can be used for pretty much anything.
I think it is real in the sense that Tom doesn't necessarily know it's not real? I'm not sure it would stand a test of faith type situation though.
Is Neville a misogynist? This gets to the complicated question of Julia for me. He appears to love Julia deeply - to the point where Miles knows she's Tom's Achilles' heel. What are some of the reasons people think Tom's a misogynist?
Tom tends to reset to gender-based insults when angry. He calls Charlie a 'pert little bitch', he calls Nora 'mamacita' (gender and race based) and he sneers something about dresses at Jim and Miles in Clue. Personally, I think it is a reflection of his crippling inferiority complex. Someone who really thinks they are smarter/better/more equipped than anyone else, they don't spend all their time pointing that out. They condescend sometimes, but that isn't what Tom does. He's making a point of trying to establish himself as 'better than' and it never works.
He is a bully - and a coward at heart - and feels the need to pull other people/genders/races down because that is the only way he can establish himself as the 'better man' in his own head. I don't think the fact he loves Julia contradicts that, there are plenty of misogynists who love their wives. They just have a damaged and damaging world view to go along with that. And Julia does shore up Tom's carefully constructed self-image.
there are plenty of misogynists who love their wives. Well certainly. I didn't mean to imply there weren't. I was just trying to think of anything relating Tom to women, since I didn't recall the comments you brought up en masse (although once you did I remembered how much I cringed at the "mamacita" thing.) I think there is bigotry that is part of social convention and structures (often personally unexamined and more internalized - and extraordinarily common among Americans) and then there are more personally realized founts of misogyny. Not that one or the other is more acceptable - I'm just wondering if you think Neville is the type who actively hates and demeans women or is more of the type who accepts social structures that suggest women are weaker, etc., and degrades them without giving it much thought? There has been a lot of talk in the U.S. military lately about how to extract the age-old misogynistic language used to train soldiers (e.g. using female-gendered insults like "pussy"). Now that the U.S. military is fully integrated, there is widespread recognition of how detrimental this is to unit cohesion (especially given the extremely high rates of sexual harassment and assault in the military). I bring that up because Miles and Bass had been trained under the system that still allowed such gendered bias (or was at least in transition), and probably didn't stamp it out in their Militia ranks. On a totally unrelated note...the women in the Militia thing. What the H is going on with that? There are only women around when it's convenient. The Rebels seem to have a better balance going on...or seemed. I guess they're demolished at this point.
Back to Tom. The comment that Tom made to Miles and Jim: wasn't that after Jim joked that Miles better start wearing a dress since Miles had been the reason he lost his wife? I think Tom was quipping off of that line. Again, not defending him (it certainly couldn't occur to me to quip off that line: "ladies") - just trying to recall context, if he's one of those an unexamined, social-structure type misogynists.
He is a bully - and a coward at heart - and feels the need to pull other people/genders/races down because that is the only way he can establish himself as the 'better man' in his own head. All that seems right on for Neville. Again, I don't think too much about him. He's not really my thing. :)
You do need to poke me if I sound snotty sometimes :) I don't MEAN to, I just get tangled up in making sure my position is clearly stated. (Define your thesis statement hangups!).
Ok - I was going to comment but I am on my iPad and that means I can't see the post I am replying to. So I will be back - later!
I think Tom degrades everyone because that is how he shores up his self-image? The scene in...the exploding train episode wasn't it?...where he was battering his men in a fist fight despite knowing they wouldn't fight back properly, then battering on an 18 year old asthmatic, exemplifies Tom for me. He struts and postures and preens in order to stop anyone realising 'what he is really like' or what he THINKS he is really like.
His issues with women do seem real though. Julia does play Macbeth, the nudge in the dark, the word in the ear - nothing straightforward or open, all the little manipulations that make him feel good and nudge him the right way - and the whole pert little bitch and mamacita things (when there was no around who seemed likely to be impressed) were nasty and vaguely off-putting.
Although apparently Tom went from the religious, Southern gentleman gig in the first half to the poor man's Miles Matheson in the second because Giancarlo had a 'word with the writers'. I need to catch the panel myself - but not till I am done with my already jossed fic :D - but a couple of people have noted that (although one said it was a dig at the writers...which isn't always a good idea).
I do think Julia was originally going to be the Lady Macbeth to Neville's Macbeth - but again that doesn't contradict Neville having issues with women. The thing is with Lady Macbeth is she manipulates and coaxes her husband into the actions he takes. She's not the power behind the throne (making Neville a puppet ruler), she's more the poison word in the ear.
I'm not sure that is the route the show is going to take anymore. After the mid-season break Julia fell back into a much more passive role (in-universe because she was shaken off her game by her son's death, out-universe because Julia's actress was up for lead role in what turned out to be the execrable NCIS:Red and the power dynamic between her and Neville shifted. He was the one directing her, ignoring her attempts to argue with him and getting his own way. Whether the power can shift back to Julia is hard to say - and depends entirely on whether or not she gets vaporised in the first ep of the second season.
Originally, Neville seemed the type who wanted power but was too passive to make a move to take it. When Bass promotes him to Major he says that Neville has been angling for the position, but we know that Neville has been out of the city for years searching for Ben. That suggests that it was Julia campaigning on her husband's behalf.
(It seems like the show was planning to explore that connection between Julia and Bass - Giancarlo at one point commented that Neville was upset by his wife spending time with Monroe - but again NCIS: Red meant it was back burnered in case they lost Julia mid-storyline)
To abandon Revolution as a topic altogether for a moment! The relationship between Stahma and Datak Tarr on Defiance is amazingly similar to Neville and Julia (and is another Abrahms vehicle). It is something I'd have loved to see on our show, but whether we will or not at this point...
I don't think Tom's character has it in him to be an arch-rival. He'd love to be, but the character doesn't have the chops. He can talk a good game - that's how he got Monroe tied to a chair - but he isn't a great soldier. Randall was right, Neville has a trail of failures behind him and one sorta-success by accident. He's not even particularly a good leader, although he seems to have convinced people he is for now.
He is a good...failure, good to set up with all these advantages at the place he's waited so long for and then let him knock it all down. Like on The Love Boat, when he was so smug and then watched it all go to shit.
(I don't dislike the character, I just think he is better at being ambitious beyond his scope?)
I do think Julia was originally going to be the Lady Macbeth to Neville's Macbeth Oh right. Now that you mention it, I remember hearing that in an interview. Poison in the ear. If Neville needed her to plant the seeds that Monroe was cracked though, I still think of him as a bit of an empty suit.
Giancarlo at one point commented that Neville was upset by his wife spending time with Monroe Ooooh. Fascinating. Man, such wasted potential.
He'd love to be, but the character doesn't have the chops. He can talk a good game - that's how he got Monroe tied to a chair - but he isn't a great soldier. Randall was right, Neville has a trail of failures behind him and one sorta-success by accident. He's not even particularly a good leader, although he seems to have convinced people he is for now. I buy this analysis.
Like on The Love Boat, when he was so smug and then watched it all go to shit. Hee. How true. Why do you think Foster thought Tom could control Miles?
Good, I'm glad you don't think he's going to rise to big bad. I agree that he doesn't have it in him. He'll make a mess of the Monroe Republic (if there's anything left). Despite Monroe being currently unstable, he was the more natural leader between the two of them.
I think Tom really does talk a good game. He escaped to Georgia, he's one of the most senior men that Bass has (mostly cos Bass keeps executing them...except for Jeremy, who went to Canada) and he played on his long history with Miles, his connection to Rachel and all the rest of it.
Foster just bought into it - so far Randall is the only one that hasn't.
(And maybe Bass - I think to a degree Bass always saw Tom as trustworthy-ish because he knew what level Tom was competent to? Not good leadership, but Bass is paranoid enough to see talent as a threat.)
Also on a related note, Tom takes the first opportunity he gets with Bass to vent frustration with Bass's leadership. Again we hear a homoerotic insult. Sense a pattern ya'll? Maybe TOM needs to come out of the closet. Kidding.
2: Is Neville a misogynist? This gets to the complicated question of Julia for me. He appears to love Julia deeply - to the point where Miles knows she's Tom's Achilles' heel. What are some of the reasons people think Tom's a misogynist?
My question about Tom-Julia is: Is she the real power behind Tom? We haven't seen her in awhile. Has she been directing Tom's actions behind the scenes? Did she really get hypothermia? How much of our big bad is she? I'm still impressed by her when Miles had her by the throat. "He's bluffing." She was ice cold, baby. Tom caved - not her.
3: He apes being a religious man - is that real or part of an act? I think he likes rules, order, self-restraint, so religion appeals to him as a system. I doubt he's a man of "faith" if you feel me, but I can see him using religion for his personal and public devices. Tom is remarkably patient, methinks.
4: We see a few of Neville's faces over the course of the show - but who does Neville really want to be? Tom isn't someone I've spent a lot of time analyzing. He does seem to want his son's loyalty and admiration. He loves his wife. So there is definitely a family component to him. I'm not altogether convinced that being head of the Militia is what he ultimately wants or what Julia wants for him...thoughts?
5: Anything you want to address? My Julia behind Tom questions, please. Also have the strong personalities of Tom and Julia eclipsed Jason? He seems so puny and wishy washy in comparison (probably best saved for Jason week)? Can someone analyze the Tom-Jason relationship for me?
Also, I used to think that Tom was the appropriate arch-rival for Miles, but after seeing them work together, I'm not so sure now. Should Tom end up as the big bad (or perhaps Julia behind him as the puppeteer)?
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I think it is real in the sense that Tom doesn't necessarily know it's not real? I'm not sure it would stand a test of faith type situation though.
Is Neville a misogynist? This gets to the complicated question of Julia for me. He appears to love Julia deeply - to the point where Miles knows she's Tom's Achilles' heel. What are some of the reasons people think Tom's a misogynist?
Tom tends to reset to gender-based insults when angry. He calls Charlie a 'pert little bitch', he calls Nora 'mamacita' (gender and race based) and he sneers something about dresses at Jim and Miles in Clue. Personally, I think it is a reflection of his crippling inferiority complex. Someone who really thinks they are smarter/better/more equipped than anyone else, they don't spend all their time pointing that out. They condescend sometimes, but that isn't what Tom does. He's making a point of trying to establish himself as 'better than' and it never works.
He is a bully - and a coward at heart - and feels the need to pull other people/genders/races down because that is the only way he can establish himself as the 'better man' in his own head. I don't think the fact he loves Julia contradicts that, there are plenty of misogynists who love their wives. They just have a damaged and damaging world view to go along with that. And Julia does shore up Tom's carefully constructed self-image.
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Well certainly. I didn't mean to imply there weren't. I was just trying to think of anything relating Tom to women, since I didn't recall the comments you brought up en masse (although once you did I remembered how much I cringed at the "mamacita" thing.) I think there is bigotry that is part of social convention and structures (often personally unexamined and more internalized - and extraordinarily common among Americans) and then there are more personally realized founts of misogyny. Not that one or the other is more acceptable - I'm just wondering if you think Neville is the type who actively hates and demeans women or is more of the type who accepts social structures that suggest women are weaker, etc., and degrades them without giving it much thought? There has been a lot of talk in the U.S. military lately about how to extract the age-old misogynistic language used to train soldiers (e.g. using female-gendered insults like "pussy"). Now that the U.S. military is fully integrated, there is widespread recognition of how detrimental this is to unit cohesion (especially given the extremely high rates of sexual harassment and assault in the military). I bring that up because Miles and Bass had been trained under the system that still allowed such gendered bias (or was at least in transition), and probably didn't stamp it out in their Militia ranks. On a totally unrelated note...the women in the Militia thing. What the H is going on with that? There are only women around when it's convenient. The Rebels seem to have a better balance going on...or seemed. I guess they're demolished at this point.
Back to Tom. The comment that Tom made to Miles and Jim: wasn't that after Jim joked that Miles better start wearing a dress since Miles had been the reason he lost his wife? I think Tom was quipping off of that line. Again, not defending him (it certainly couldn't occur to me to quip off that line: "ladies") - just trying to recall context, if he's one of those an unexamined, social-structure type misogynists.
He is a bully - and a coward at heart - and feels the need to pull other people/genders/races down because that is the only way he can establish himself as the 'better man' in his own head.
All that seems right on for Neville. Again, I don't think too much about him. He's not really my thing. :)
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Ok - I was going to comment but I am on my iPad and that means I can't see the post I am replying to. So I will be back - later!
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His issues with women do seem real though. Julia does play Macbeth, the nudge in the dark, the word in the ear - nothing straightforward or open, all the little manipulations that make him feel good and nudge him the right way - and the whole pert little bitch and mamacita things (when there was no around who seemed likely to be impressed) were nasty and vaguely off-putting.
Although apparently Tom went from the religious, Southern gentleman gig in the first half to the poor man's Miles Matheson in the second because Giancarlo had a 'word with the writers'. I need to catch the panel myself - but not till I am done with my already jossed fic :D - but a couple of people have noted that (although one said it was a dig at the writers...which isn't always a good idea).
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Which brings me to Julia!
I do think Julia was originally going to be the Lady Macbeth to Neville's Macbeth - but again that doesn't contradict Neville having issues with women. The thing is with Lady Macbeth is she manipulates and coaxes her husband into the actions he takes. She's not the power behind the throne (making Neville a puppet ruler), she's more the poison word in the ear.
I'm not sure that is the route the show is going to take anymore. After the mid-season break Julia fell back into a much more passive role (in-universe because she was shaken off her game by her son's death, out-universe because Julia's actress was up for lead role in what turned out to be the execrable NCIS:Red and the power dynamic between her and Neville shifted. He was the one directing her, ignoring her attempts to argue with him and getting his own way. Whether the power can shift back to Julia is hard to say - and depends entirely on whether or not she gets vaporised in the first ep of the second season.
Originally, Neville seemed the type who wanted power but was too passive to make a move to take it. When Bass promotes him to Major he says that Neville has been angling for the position, but we know that Neville has been out of the city for years searching for Ben. That suggests that it was Julia campaigning on her husband's behalf.
(It seems like the show was planning to explore that connection between Julia and Bass - Giancarlo at one point commented that Neville was upset by his wife spending time with Monroe - but again NCIS: Red meant it was back burnered in case they lost Julia mid-storyline)
To abandon Revolution as a topic altogether for a moment! The relationship between Stahma and Datak Tarr on Defiance is amazingly similar to Neville and Julia (and is another Abrahms vehicle). It is something I'd have loved to see on our show, but whether we will or not at this point...
I don't think Tom's character has it in him to be an arch-rival. He'd love to be, but the character doesn't have the chops. He can talk a good game - that's how he got Monroe tied to a chair - but he isn't a great soldier. Randall was right, Neville has a trail of failures behind him and one sorta-success by accident. He's not even particularly a good leader, although he seems to have convinced people he is for now.
He is a good...failure, good to set up with all these advantages at the place he's waited so long for and then let him knock it all down. Like on The Love Boat, when he was so smug and then watched it all go to shit.
(I don't dislike the character, I just think he is better at being ambitious beyond his scope?)
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Oh right. Now that you mention it, I remember hearing that in an interview. Poison in the ear. If Neville needed her to plant the seeds that Monroe was cracked though, I still think of him as a bit of an empty suit.
Giancarlo at one point commented that Neville was upset by his wife spending time with Monroe
Ooooh. Fascinating. Man, such wasted potential.
He'd love to be, but the character doesn't have the chops. He can talk a good game - that's how he got Monroe tied to a chair - but he isn't a great soldier. Randall was right, Neville has a trail of failures behind him and one sorta-success by accident. He's not even particularly a good leader, although he seems to have convinced people he is for now.
I buy this analysis.
Like on The Love Boat, when he was so smug and then watched it all go to shit.
Hee. How true. Why do you think Foster thought Tom could control Miles?
Good, I'm glad you don't think he's going to rise to big bad. I agree that he doesn't have it in him. He'll make a mess of the Monroe Republic (if there's anything left). Despite Monroe being currently unstable, he was the more natural leader between the two of them.
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Foster just bought into it - so far Randall is the only one that hasn't.
(And maybe Bass - I think to a degree Bass always saw Tom as trustworthy-ish because he knew what level Tom was competent to? Not good leadership, but Bass is paranoid enough to see talent as a threat.)
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