Thanks for mentioning Yamato connected to the statue of the first Hokage! I completely missed the panel, probably because I read the chapter in a hurry. It's a bit like taken from one of the Alien-movies.
I have reread the chapter now, and another thought that crossed my mind was why they think that they have to ship the jinchuuriki to Kumogakure instead of the head quarters. Would that not have been safer? Of course they did not know the location of Madara's hideout at the time... And why do they have to evacuate the countries? When friendly armies pass through a place they are normally not evacuated, as far as I know. Or do they fear that these countries won't just be a place to march through, but become a battle field? They should hurry then, I think.
victory will be determined by who makes the first move
I sense that this will go wrong...
More and more I am returning to my pacifist roots, and I simply cannot join in the overall excitement about the battle that is to begin. When I first read the chapter I was put off by the characters excitement and grim determination about the upcoming battle. Isn't anyone in fear? Rereading the chapter I wonder whether I confused the fans' reaction with the reaction of the characters, who are not as enthusiastic as I though at first sight.
I am neither really keen on seeing the dead characters again: Curtain calls make sense on stage, but not in a book or manga where it's always possible to get one of the early volumes from the shelf and meet your beloved characters again. It takes from the reality of death - but on the other hand, meeting your beloved characters as Zombies is not great either.
Maybe Kishimoto plans to make Kabuto lose control of them?
What keeps me reading the manga is the fact that Naruto is still outside the general plot. He does not participate in the general excitement about the battle. Neither is Sasuke, who is still waiting to be allowed to put down his blind. I guess that Madara knows pretty well why he keeps him at the side at the moment: Sasuke's motivation is not overall war.
So all what remains to me is my hope that Naruto will break the logic of war...
I am neither really keen on seeing the dead characters again: Curtain calls make sense on stage, but not in a book or manga where it's always possible to get one of the early volumes from the shelf and meet your beloved characters again. It takes from the reality of death - but on the other hand, meeting your beloved characters as Zombies is not great either.
Maybe Kishimoto plans to make Kabuto lose control of them?
While Kabuto's dickishness and fondness for mind games should never be underestimated, I have to wonder if his summoning of so many dead characters that hold loyalty to Konoha was done not only for the mind-game potential , but so that at some point he can indeed "lose" control of them.
We already know that Kabuto clearly has his own agenda when it comes to Madara, and he's been deliberately setting roadblocks in Madara's path (leaving a clear trail to their lair so everyone knows about their plans, the Zetsu poison, "failing" to capture Naruto, etc.). So the zombies can easily have a dual purpose: make it look like Kabuto's out to screw everyone over mentally and physically, but then, at a critical point for Madara, "whoops, wrong summoning tag!" And then the good guys get some nice new zombie reinforcements.
Of course, what actually happens will depend on what Kabuto's true motivations are--other than "fight Naruto at some point" and dicking around Madara, we have no clue. But Kabuto's in a weird position compared to all the other "evil" major villains: he's the only one that's done "good" here and there in the manga, and considering that Kishi couldn't even give Oro the punishment he deserved (so, he gets to spend eternity in a blissful dream of every one of his heart's desires? OUCH) I still think that Kishimoto might end up pulling an Itachi with him at the last minute.
Then again, I also have a crazy theory (backed up by absolutely nothing) that all the stuff that Kabuto's doing now with Madara was originally meant for Sasuke to do, but the editors refused to let Sasuke go that way and so Kabuto was shoehorned in. It would explain the glaring plot hole around Kabuto's deciding to turn himself into Oro 2.0 at least...
So you think Sasuke was supposed to take Orochimaru's place after defeating him and become Madara's partner in crimes? Interesting and not so out there. The manga would have gone in a completely different direction for sure.
I never really saw Kabuto as a main villain, so I was surprised that he became Madara's somewhat ally. I'm really enjoying Kabuto's antics now. He's free from Orochimaru and he's definitely his own man. Always knew he had some skills, but now they are presented front and center.
He's really doing a great job of messing with Madara. I'm dieing to find out what he is really up to. Madara is not going to know what hit him...
Have to admit even now, Orochimaru's final end seemed a little off. I was looking for a more definitive ending and yet he still lives (sort of) in Kabuto, who is looking mighty creepy.
Maybe Kishimoto plans to make Kabuto lose control of them?
I'm hoping for something like this. It's a nice twist of poetic justice, to see a villain done in by his own evil. But I think the main reason the plot device has me so excited is because I enjoy the potential angst for characters like Neji and Tsunade. (I can be kind of sadistic toward fictional characters, I admit.)
What keeps me reading the manga is the fact that Naruto is still outside the general plot. He does not participate in the general excitement about the battle. Neither is Sasuke, who is still waiting to be allowed to put down his blind.
Yes, and I think this is crucial. As I said in my review, they really do come across as "above it all" here. I don't really consider myself a pacifist per se, BUT I would like to see an outcome for this story in which a non-violent solution--one that represents a real reconciliation, not a fake peace--is shown to be superior to the clash of armies. That's not to say that I don't think Naruto and Sasuke will probably have some kind of clash themselves in the end. I'm just hoping that eventually it will end in understanding and reconciliation. Right now, with virtually everyone else gearing up for this major battle to end all battles, the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are isolated from it--are not even, in fact, truly aware of what is going on (Sasuke may have an inkling, but I don't think Madara's really told him that much)--is, to me at least, a source of hope.
Don't get me wrong: I don't think this battle will be averted, nor do I think an eventual clash between Naruto and Sasuke will be averted. But the way things are being set up leaves me with the impression that although the battles may be an important element of the story in allowing it to entertain its target demographic, from a thematic standpoint, it is the connection between Naruto and his estranged friend that matters more.
At the moment the problems with the manga from a pacifist point of view are manifold. I will try to make notes and write some short meta about it. What's my problem with the clash Naruto versus Sasuke is that by a lot of people it is considered emotionally satisfying and vital to the plot that they clash, while for me neither is the case. I mean - they clash, and what then? Naruto first defeats Sasuke and then uses his Jesus no Jutsu on him? It would be just cheesy.
Naruto first defeats Sasuke and then uses his Jesus no Jutsu on him? It would be just cheesy.
I doubt Naruto will defeat Sasuke. If anything, I expect them to fight just long enough to show off all their pretty jutsus (thereby hitting up the target demographic) and come to a stalemate. At which point that crucial Something Else will be needed to resolve the central conflict of the series. Exactly what that Something Else is, I don't know, and I don't really want to know until the moment comes. When it does, only then will I know whether or not it's something I can appreciate from a thematic standpoint or not. Like you, I don't anticipate much emotional satisfaction from a clash between Naruto and Sasuke (but we're not in the target demographic, after all). But I also don't feel that it will be "cheesy" or will ruin the story in any way. What will make or break the story for me is that Something Else. That's what I'm waiting for.
I don't think the war or the conflict between Naruto and Sasuke will be averted either. The build up for both these events to happen has reached critical mass and is unavoidable at this point. Just think of the fan rebellion (not us, the target demo who are probable chomping at the bit) if no fighting happened? Torches and pitchforks anyone?
I'm actually looking forward to the fight between Naruto and Sasuke, plus add in all the potentially epic fights between the zombies and ninja.
"At which point that crucial Something Else will be needed to resolve the central conflict of the series."
Agree. Naruto and Sasuke are evenly matched right now. IMO, a stalemate is inevitable. Is that "something else" related to Itachi's "gift" or not? That whole sequence of events between Itachi and Naruto has always been at the back of my mind. It has to mean something, though it wouldn't be the first time I gave an event more importance than it actually had.
Whatever that "something else" is I can't wait to find out what it is and be surprised.
What's Naruto's ideology? Love? What about the people Sasuke loved? Naruto is the only character in the story who even thinks of this, so I have still some hope left, and also some hope left that this won't end with Sasuke's humiliation.
I can explain the cheesiness of Naruto's Jesus no Jutsu: It's that people suddenly start to believe in his dream and forget whatever they believed in before, and also they forget their own pain and their life. Everything gets resoved or rather dissolved in Naruto's dream. But this is not how real peace works. Real peace is painful for everyone, as it means looking back into the past. It means to find a compromise between the victims right to see the perpetrator punished, and the perpetrator's basic human rights, and the right to try again.
My issue with the manga is that it offers two extreme options - revenge that has lost all proportion, and forgiveness without a sign of repentance on the offender's side - that don't work in Real Life. In Real Life there's a middle way that works, while both these extremes means that Evil can prevail.
In my other comment I mentioned Kakashi's and Yamato's reaction to Madara's story. Did any of them consider going back to Konoha and see that not only Danzou but also the two Elders get removed from their offices? (I am not even speaking of punishing them.) Did Kakashi, when he tried to convince Sasuke to stop his revenge, even dream of apologizing to him? At that point he considered himself future Hokage - he should have apologized in the name of Konoha, even though he has no personal responsibility for the crimes. Instead he got preachy about revenge. (And he did not even try to explain Sasuke about the difference between killing those who are guilty and those who are not.)
It's just - Sasuke was hurt really badly. He's not some two-year-old crying because he does not get some ice-cream. What happened to him is a really horrible crime. Kill someone's family and then blame him for not being able to control his anger is very hypocritical, to say the least. (I have met people of that mindset.)
But Kakashi seems rather insensitive, or maybe incapable of saying what needs to be said to Sasuke. What he said, before Sasuke's defection about being alike and not seeking vengeance seems almost misguided. Their scenarios are simply NOT similar (if what we learned about Kakashi's past is all that there is) and I really thought that Kakashi would atleast try to say something to appease Sasuke, regardless of whether they could trust Madara's story or not; how about 'Don't believe what Madara said to you'? but not even that was attempted. What happened at that point was Kishimoto's destruction of any remainder of any goodwill that Kakashi and Sakura felt for Sasuke and his blatant alienation, when it was Sakura who attacked him first! Can we blame him for his retaliation? All in all, I understand that this is a manga and not a story about righteousness, but its very difficult for me to read about Shikamaru blatant vengeance for his mentor and then the self righteous 'lets kill Sasuke to end the cycle of hatred.' There were a few instances in the manga that gave me hope that Kishimoto really understands human emotion and that maybe he will give Sasuke his rightful conclusion but recently all we see is that Sasuke is blinded with rage and we don't see the reality that he is an emotionally distraught 16 year old who has no one left in the world he can trust. The two extremes that senior_witch refers to are just unrealistic. I want to reiterate my point below in that with the zombie revival, Itachi may have one last chance to set the truth straight (if Madara is lying) or atleast set Sasuke's mind at ease (if possible). Don't disappoint me, Kishimoto!
I have reread the chapter now, and another thought that crossed my mind was why they think that they have to ship the jinchuuriki to Kumogakure instead of the head quarters. Would that not have been safer? Of course they did not know the location of Madara's hideout at the time... And why do they have to evacuate the countries? When friendly armies pass through a place they are normally not evacuated, as far as I know. Or do they fear that these countries won't just be a place to march through, but become a battle field? They should hurry then, I think.
victory will be determined by who makes the first move
I sense that this will go wrong...
More and more I am returning to my pacifist roots, and I simply cannot join in the overall excitement about the battle that is to begin. When I first read the chapter I was put off by the characters excitement and grim determination about the upcoming battle. Isn't anyone in fear? Rereading the chapter I wonder whether I confused the fans' reaction with the reaction of the characters, who are not as enthusiastic as I though at first sight.
I am neither really keen on seeing the dead characters again: Curtain calls make sense on stage, but not in a book or manga where it's always possible to get one of the early volumes from the shelf and meet your beloved characters again. It takes from the reality of death - but on the other hand, meeting your beloved characters as Zombies is not great either.
Maybe Kishimoto plans to make Kabuto lose control of them?
What keeps me reading the manga is the fact that Naruto is still outside the general plot. He does not participate in the general excitement about the battle. Neither is Sasuke, who is still waiting to be allowed to put down his blind. I guess that Madara knows pretty well why he keeps him at the side at the moment: Sasuke's motivation is not overall war.
So all what remains to me is my hope that Naruto will break the logic of war...
Reply
Maybe Kishimoto plans to make Kabuto lose control of them?
While Kabuto's dickishness and fondness for mind games should never be underestimated, I have to wonder if his summoning of so many dead characters that hold loyalty to Konoha was done not only for the mind-game potential , but so that at some point he can indeed "lose" control of them.
We already know that Kabuto clearly has his own agenda when it comes to Madara, and he's been deliberately setting roadblocks in Madara's path (leaving a clear trail to their lair so everyone knows about their plans, the Zetsu poison, "failing" to capture Naruto, etc.). So the zombies can easily have a dual purpose: make it look like Kabuto's out to screw everyone over mentally and physically, but then, at a critical point for Madara, "whoops, wrong summoning tag!" And then the good guys get some nice new zombie reinforcements.
Of course, what actually happens will depend on what Kabuto's true motivations are--other than "fight Naruto at some point" and dicking around Madara, we have no clue. But Kabuto's in a weird position compared to all the other "evil" major villains: he's the only one that's done "good" here and there in the manga, and considering that Kishi couldn't even give Oro the punishment he deserved (so, he gets to spend eternity in a blissful dream of every one of his heart's desires? OUCH) I still think that Kishimoto might end up pulling an Itachi with him at the last minute.
Then again, I also have a crazy theory (backed up by absolutely nothing) that all the stuff that Kabuto's doing now with Madara was originally meant for Sasuke to do, but the editors refused to let Sasuke go that way and so Kabuto was shoehorned in. It would explain the glaring plot hole around Kabuto's deciding to turn himself into Oro 2.0 at least...
Reply
I never really saw Kabuto as a main villain, so I was surprised that he became Madara's somewhat ally. I'm really enjoying Kabuto's antics now. He's free from Orochimaru and he's definitely his own man. Always knew he had some skills, but now they are presented front and center.
He's really doing a great job of messing with Madara. I'm dieing to find out what he is really up to. Madara is not going to know what hit him...
Have to admit even now, Orochimaru's final end seemed a little off. I was looking for a more definitive ending and yet he still lives (sort of) in Kabuto, who is looking mighty creepy.
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I'm hoping for something like this. It's a nice twist of poetic justice, to see a villain done in by his own evil. But I think the main reason the plot device has me so excited is because I enjoy the potential angst for characters like Neji and Tsunade. (I can be kind of sadistic toward fictional characters, I admit.)
What keeps me reading the manga is the fact that Naruto is still outside the general plot. He does not participate in the general excitement about the battle. Neither is Sasuke, who is still waiting to be allowed to put down his blind.
Yes, and I think this is crucial. As I said in my review, they really do come across as "above it all" here. I don't really consider myself a pacifist per se, BUT I would like to see an outcome for this story in which a non-violent solution--one that represents a real reconciliation, not a fake peace--is shown to be superior to the clash of armies. That's not to say that I don't think Naruto and Sasuke will probably have some kind of clash themselves in the end. I'm just hoping that eventually it will end in understanding and reconciliation. Right now, with virtually everyone else gearing up for this major battle to end all battles, the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are isolated from it--are not even, in fact, truly aware of what is going on (Sasuke may have an inkling, but I don't think Madara's really told him that much)--is, to me at least, a source of hope.
Don't get me wrong: I don't think this battle will be averted, nor do I think an eventual clash between Naruto and Sasuke will be averted. But the way things are being set up leaves me with the impression that although the battles may be an important element of the story in allowing it to entertain its target demographic, from a thematic standpoint, it is the connection between Naruto and his estranged friend that matters more.
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I doubt Naruto will defeat Sasuke. If anything, I expect them to fight just long enough to show off all their pretty jutsus (thereby hitting up the target demographic) and come to a stalemate. At which point that crucial Something Else will be needed to resolve the central conflict of the series. Exactly what that Something Else is, I don't know, and I don't really want to know until the moment comes. When it does, only then will I know whether or not it's something I can appreciate from a thematic standpoint or not. Like you, I don't anticipate much emotional satisfaction from a clash between Naruto and Sasuke (but we're not in the target demographic, after all). But I also don't feel that it will be "cheesy" or will ruin the story in any way. What will make or break the story for me is that Something Else. That's what I'm waiting for.
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I'm actually looking forward to the fight between Naruto and Sasuke, plus add in all the potentially epic fights between the zombies and ninja.
"At which point that crucial Something Else will be needed to resolve the central conflict of the series."
Agree. Naruto and Sasuke are evenly matched right now. IMO, a stalemate is inevitable. Is that "something else" related to Itachi's "gift" or not? That whole sequence of events between Itachi and Naruto has always been at the back of my mind. It has to mean something, though it wouldn't be the first time I gave an event more importance than it actually had.
Whatever that "something else" is I can't wait to find out what it is and be surprised.
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(The comment has been removed)
I can explain the cheesiness of Naruto's Jesus no Jutsu: It's that people suddenly start to believe in his dream and forget whatever they believed in before, and also they forget their own pain and their life. Everything gets resoved or rather dissolved in Naruto's dream. But this is not how real peace works. Real peace is painful for everyone, as it means looking back into the past. It means to find a compromise between the victims right to see the perpetrator punished, and the perpetrator's basic human rights, and the right to try again.
My issue with the manga is that it offers two extreme options - revenge that has lost all proportion, and forgiveness without a sign of repentance on the offender's side - that don't work in Real Life. In Real Life there's a middle way that works, while both these extremes means that Evil can prevail.
In my other comment I mentioned Kakashi's and Yamato's reaction to Madara's story. Did any of them consider going back to Konoha and see that not only Danzou but also the two Elders get removed from their offices? (I am not even speaking of punishing them.) Did Kakashi, when he tried to convince Sasuke to stop his revenge, even dream of apologizing to him? At that point he considered himself future Hokage - he should have apologized in the name of Konoha, even though he has no personal responsibility for the crimes. Instead he got preachy about revenge. (And he did not even try to explain Sasuke about the difference between killing those who are guilty and those who are not.)
It's just - Sasuke was hurt really badly. He's not some two-year-old crying because he does not get some ice-cream. What happened to him is a really horrible crime. Kill someone's family and then blame him for not being able to control his anger is very hypocritical, to say the least. (I have met people of that mindset.)
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(The comment has been removed)
What happened at that point was Kishimoto's destruction of any remainder of any goodwill that Kakashi and Sakura felt for Sasuke and his blatant alienation, when it was Sakura who attacked him first! Can we blame him for his retaliation?
All in all, I understand that this is a manga and not a story about righteousness, but its very difficult for me to read about Shikamaru blatant vengeance for his mentor and then the self righteous 'lets kill Sasuke to end the cycle of hatred.' There were a few instances in the manga that gave me hope that Kishimoto really understands human emotion and that maybe he will give Sasuke his rightful conclusion but recently all we see is that Sasuke is blinded with rage and we don't see the reality that he is an emotionally distraught 16 year old who has no one left in the world he can trust. The two extremes that senior_witch refers to are just unrealistic.
I want to reiterate my point below in that with the zombie revival, Itachi may have one last chance to set the truth straight (if Madara is lying) or atleast set Sasuke's mind at ease (if possible).
Don't disappoint me, Kishimoto!
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