Writing Links

[naamah_darling]

In no particular order, things that are important or useful or fun.

The Omniscient Breasts, Kate Elliott

YOU CAN WRITE FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF A FEMALE CHARACTER AND STILL BE WRITING WITH THE MALE GAZE

Comments

[dulcimeoww]

The male gaze is a topic I've always had trouble really understanding. I consider all people valid for sexual interest, and it doesn't occur to me to feel uncomfortable viewing a female character through a sexual lens, anymore than it occurs to me to feel uncomfortable viewing a male character that way, or a character without specific gender for that matter. I just can't quite grasp why it should. Unless a character exists only for that purpose (in which case it's just indulgent writing without depth and probably isn't something on which I'll waste my time), I don't see that it adds or detracts from a narrative. It's just one more aspect of the character to me, and I don't care what gender the gaze is so long as I can see through it and enjoy what I'm looking at. Perhaps it's a failing of understanding on my part, or a lack of finding a decent explanation, but of all the feminist topics that come up, this is the one which I simply do not get. Usually I agree with the principle if not the approach, but for this despite reading

[virginia_fell]

My introduction to it was when a feminist porn mag I was subscribed to discussed the difference between erotic portrayals of men that are intended to please gay or bi men, and erotic portrayals of men that are intended to please straight or bi women. A lot of the porn that women into men are shown to if we want porn is not actually made for us, even though we like men and there are men in it. It's been made for gay men, and while gay men obviously don't all want the same things any more than any other group does... it's a little screwy to produce media for women without ever actually asking us what we're into. It's a little screwy, and it doesn't work as well

[dulcimeoww]

That all makes sense, and believe me I noticed and devoutly appreciated when there was a shirtless Chris Hemsworth because I'm pretty sure you'd have to be dead not to regardless of one's preferences. I can readily see the difference in how scenes are written or directed, I just don't get why it's a THING. It's not like I have any obligation to consume media that doesn't appeal to me, and in this day and age there's enough variety out there so I'm not really limited, and it's not like I'm incapable of enjoying something that doesn't specifically cater to my views anyways. So the part I don't get isn't the distinction, it's why are so many women pissed off about this?

[virginia_fell]

I can only speak for myself, but as a woman it can get very discouraging and alienating to only ever be able to identify with a female character in a story if I try to overlook that no matter what we do, we're only around to titillate someone else.

That sucks for me, and while I doubt I'm the only one that's what bugs me the most. I have a hard time identifying with a woman whose function in the universe is clearly to be arousing to a male author and an assumed-male reader, because what does that say about me? This isn't about needing fiction that specifically caters to "my views" so much as needing writing that caters to my sense of myself as a real person. Overlooking that and enjoying writing that literally dehumanizes me (by excising as irrelevant anything that doesn't arouse a man) is sometimes easier suggested than done

[dulcimeoww]

Thank you! While it probably will continue not to bother me, I do now understand why it bothers you, and that is something I've never been able to get anyone to properly explain to me. I very much value the insight! The outrage I've been seeing still doesn't quite ring as justified to me, but the sense of profound discomfort behind it now makes a lot more sense, and now that I understand the source, the outrage will be easier for me to look at in the situations where I encounter it

[virginia_fell]

Yay! Glad my rantings were useful. I figured if I just spewed text for a while eventually something would come out that you could do something with. =P

I do think there's a distinction to be made between a momentary view of a character as a sexually appealing being, and limiting the character to that specific role, though.

I agree. I also don't think the complaint is that female characters are allowed to be sexual people; the complaint is when a female character is defined by her worth as a penis hat. I don't think every female character has to be sexual, so I am glad to see women in fiction occasionally not being someone's sexy interest, but the idea of female characters as sexual people isn't the problem. It's the idea that they are sexual before they are people, if they're people at all

[naamah_darling]

Oh god, every time you say "penis hats" I nearly spit water onto my keyboard.

You are kicking ass all up in this thread, and I am really glad of that, because I wanted to address it and have a discussion, but am way too damn tired to do it tonight. You basically said most of what I was going to say. Thank you.

[virginia_fell]

Hurrah! Helpful!

[dulcimeoww]

Uhm... I don't think being a woman is necessarily why it's obvious to you? I'm a woman too, afterall, and it isn't really something that stands out or triggers me in any way, thus my initial problems with understanding the term. Mostly, when I notice a female character with improbably tidy hair or a perfect heaving bosom, I don't stop and think to myself, "That means this character is for men" or, "I should want to sex her a lot right now." I mostly think, "Well, there's the proof that this is fantasy, 'cause I am never going to find a bra that does THAT! Wouldn't it be neat if I could, though

[virginia_fell]

Not every woman will have the same experience I will, obviously, but it's because I'm a woman that it gets to me. Other women's mileage will vary.

Also, I listed Trinity because of the pleather bustier and her magical destiny to fall in love with The One. I cringe every time she's whispering, "by the way... all that badass stuff I did... it's not the point of my existence... my destiny... is to love youuuuu~"

[dulcimeoww]

I see. I was a little offended because I thought the implication was I didn't get it because I wasn't a woman.

Hm. I'd have put down Trinity's utter lack of sexual appeal to the director's decisions, and thus seen them as deliberate. I never saw Trinity as a woman or a person, so it didn't matter to me in the slightest that she walked around with her boobs outlined in plastic detail. The rest of her was plastic, too. Both the bustier and the one true love bullshit struck me as very superficial trappings. I could see being offended that the female character was only there for that, but in the case of that particular movie really EVERY character was only there for that. It was pretty much equal-opportunity cardboard, so it had my blanket disinterest.

[virginia_fell]

I was a little offended because I thought the implication was I didn't get it because I wasn't a woman.I've tried to be careful about speaking for anybody but myself, but it's my bad if I didn't do a good enough job. I think what I am trying to say is that it's not a coincidence that I am a woman and that I am bothered by these things. There'll be women who don't mind, and people of other genders who do, but for me my experience of being a woman is a major part of why this stuff is difficult for me to ignore

[rickvs]

Thanks for jumping into this thread, virginia_fell.

You've given me a lot to think about, and a couple of new entries to my vocabulary :>

Have you, by chance, read John Varley's "Steel Beach"? Some of his writing-from-a-female-POV rang more true to me than, as you point out, Heinlein's, but I wasn't certain how much I should trust my judgment on it.

[virginia_fell]

Also, RE: her total lack of sexual appeal

I think there are a lot of people who get pantsfeels for a stern lady in vinyl. >:P

[dulcimeoww]

Well, yes, there is that. I just prefer there to be a person under the plastic. I'm a sucker for a well-developed broad, and I'm not talking about her chest. Give me opinions and a sense of humor under that bustier and I'd be fanning myself like an old lady in the back of an unventilated church in July, even if she does smell like gun oil and synthetic placenta.

[elialshadowpine]

My partner, who is straight(ish), picked up on it in Thor. I think that he has a little more awareness of the female gaze, though, as we both co-admin for a romance writing community online, and the women there are pretty open about talking about their eye candy. :) I think we also both noticed that the poses they put Hemsworth in specifically are very similar to those on romance novel covers (and a lot of the romance novel marketing is arranged by women, for women; there have been some video interviews with cover artists and designers that have been very interesting).