I don't get Narr anywhere in his GMing style. I've suggested, and he's pretty much agreed, that Harn is Simulationist/Gamist, while Shadowrun is Gamist/Simulationist.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Narrativist? I took it to mean that the premise was explored equally by GM and players, with both contributing to the examination of the theme?
the current Harn game theme is Family, Family, Family.
the current Srun game theme is Chthulu evil versus morally ambiguous good.
That's not what the Forgies mean by Theme. Ron defines it as "the point, message, or key emotional conclusion perceived by an audience member, about a fictional series of events." He also wrote, in his Narr essay, that "Theme is defined as a value-judgment or point that may be inferred from the in-game events." The rules and style of play we use do not reliably support Theme, given that random encounters, bad rolls, the "bad for you die", etc have such strong influence over the course of play, whereas value judgements are generally moot except when buttressed by tactical considerations.
I think you Sim about right. I discern the Sim agenda in Harn from all the things the GM does in the name of realism - things like rolling for weather, and then rolling to see if the weather makes you sick. They don't address a Premise (unless "being in Harn makes you sad" is a Premise) and they aren't intended to create a challenge that the PCs accept. They're there because being wet and sick is Harnic.
Finding a specific example of Narr/Gamist play is tough because Gamism tends to find its way in through every orifice rather than being spelled out in the game mechanics. DITV is a fundamentally Narr design - Traits and Relationships act as flags to help the GM create situations in which the player's choices can address Premise. Throw in a couple of players who both want to be alpha Dog and suddenly you'll see a Gamist drift in play. You also occasionally see an overarching Gamism emerge where players start to brag about how much shit they're put their character through.
Okay, makes sense. So, I like to play Harn because of the story that we create as we go. Not the Symmael has dysentary, but the party helping to remove Chafin from his head and throne.
But if I understand what you are suggesting, that is not really the purpose of Harn. Which is why the Daros campaign, or even the new Lia Kavair campaign don't seem to have a direction.
I think you're on the right track, certainly. Of course any game featuring strong party cohesion can't be very sure of delivering a great story. It can, if all the players are fully engaged in the same story that the GM has opened up to them, but that's just a happy coincidence when it happens.
This is why the Forge articles contain that reference to El Dorado. It's easy to split the difference between Narr and Gamism, or Sim and Gamism, but gulf between Sim and Narr is impossible to straddle.
Of course I am only a junior lurker on the Forge. If you posted an AP report and asked for help figuring out where the fun went, someone like Ron Edwards might have a totally different and more Forge-correct answer.
Next time I come over, I'll loan you Sorcerer. I think it has some weak points as a game, but it's pretty obviously Ron Edwards getting sick to death of White Wolf games and reinventing them to facilitate Narrativist play. You see a lot of the same trappings and techniques (dark and brooding world, d10s, a tradeoff between using
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the current Harn game theme is Family, Family, Family.
the current Srun game theme is Chthulu evil versus morally ambiguous good.
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If I understand simulationist it means experiencing the world for no other purpose, right?
Or am I over simplifying the concept?
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Finding a specific example of Narr/Gamist play is tough because Gamism tends to find its way in through every orifice rather than being spelled out in the game mechanics. DITV is a fundamentally Narr design - Traits and Relationships act as flags to help the GM create situations in which the player's choices can address Premise. Throw in a couple of players who both want to be alpha Dog and suddenly you'll see a Gamist drift in play. You also occasionally see an overarching Gamism emerge where players start to brag about how much shit they're put their character through.
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But if I understand what you are suggesting, that is not really the purpose of Harn. Which is why the Daros campaign, or even the new Lia Kavair campaign don't seem to have a direction.
Am I right?
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This is why the Forge articles contain that reference to El Dorado. It's easy to split the difference between Narr and Gamism, or Sim and Gamism, but gulf between Sim and Narr is impossible to straddle.
Of course I am only a junior lurker on the Forge. If you posted an AP report and asked for help figuring out where the fun went, someone like Ron Edwards might have a totally different and more Forge-correct answer.
Next time I come over, I'll loan you Sorcerer. I think it has some weak points as a game, but it's pretty obviously Ron Edwards getting sick to death of White Wolf games and reinventing them to facilitate Narrativist play. You see a lot of the same trappings and techniques (dark and brooding world, d10s, a tradeoff between using ( ... )
Reply
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