Re: What do others do?auctasinistraApril 3 2007, 07:12:30 UTC
I'm really only teasing, but you certainly could pimp your stuff at any of the Snarry coms (if it is Snarry, of course); lots of people make announcements there (I don't myself, but plenty of people do).
The thing is, you made Dudley a likeable bully, or at least a comprehensible bully. Getting into the heads of dislikeable people and looking out is the only way to make them likeable in any respect - and you portrayed him from inside his head. That was lovely, and it's hard to do with dislikeable people (But of course you know all this).
But don't you think (this at least is my theory) that bullies have particular problems with self esteem? I've always figured so many things could be traced back to that. A person who likes himself doesn't need to prove anything to others, whether it's "I'm cleverer than you" or "I'm prettier than you" or "I'm tougher than you"; he seems so unhappy in himself (like a lot of people who're shitty to others) that exercising his power of hurting others is the only way he can, for a little while, forget how little and pained he is inside, and let him pretend he's "big" in the ways that matter.
Re: What do others do?my_tara_toryApril 14 2007, 19:46:56 UTC
Sorry I didn't reply right away. Had to wait until the weekend. Anyway, about bullies and self-esteem. Self-esteem being rather complex, I think they do make themselves feel higher in the heirachy by stomping others down, but there have been some articles and books recently suggesting that it isn't self-esteem that bullies lack. They feel pretty okay about themselves. Feel great, actually. They feel special and entitled. It's empathy they lack. They like the power they feel hurting others.
Don't be frightened, I'm going to try to make a link! Not that I know anything about this blog/post I am linking to, but it combined the ideas of several articles I had read in a short space.
The idea that bullies actually have unearned self-esteem is interesting to me because it says to me that Petunia and Vernon more or less made Dudley into a bully, not only by allowing or encouraging it, but by their parenting / spoiling of their son. I've felt a little sorrier for Dudders since I thought about it. Talk about having no chance. I also think that should the artificial self esteem be exploded or proved false, Dudley would fall apart and need a LOT of professional help. And I do wonder how he would come out of that, and if he would then be a decent person and could eventually be friends with Harry.
But, it sounds like a novel and I am SO not writing that!
Re: What do others do?auctasinistraApril 14 2007, 20:44:28 UTC
I entirely agree about feeling sorry for people like Dudley (that is, when we're far enough away from him). I firmly believe that most people who're assholes (not the ones with actual medical issues) probably would have been OK people had they been raised better. Realizing that makes you sorry for them because, not to sound all fluffy about it, but shit ... they can't be happy inside, surely?
I haven't read any of the recent articles you mention, but I do wonder if it's merely a redefinition of terms ... I'd have to do some research. Only because it seems so obvious to me that abusers (of people or drugs), bullies, even overachievers are doing what they do to silence, at least temporarily, that voice inside saying "You suck. You're not good enough and you'll never be good enough and everyone hates you." It just makes sense to me (not that I'm anything resembling an expert). The people who love themselves (again, IMO) spend a lot less time boasting, showing off, medicating themselves into altered states, and putting other people down (physically or verbally) - because they don't need to. When you know you're cool, you got nothin' to prove to nobody. :) (And again, of course, I refer primarily to people without physical or psychological problems - just regular assholes *g*)
(Will read your linky thingy [well done!] in a bit when I'm not rushed)
Re: What do others do?my_tara_toryApril 14 2007, 21:53:38 UTC
The people who are assholes who would be better people if raised better--mostly I agree. But I have come across people who were bastards from the moment they were born, and they're going to die that way, after making a lot of other people miserably along the way. I think a certain small percentage are hard-wired (sociopaths?) to be nasty. (I don't see Draco this way, for some reason. He, too, was raised to his nastiness.)
But you know, I think bullies and nasty people can be happy inside. What makes them happy just isn't what makes other people happy. Bullying makes them feel successful. There are usually other people to give them positive feedback for their bad behavior, which feels good.
The folks who most feel uncertain or unhappy about bullying are kids who are trying out the bullying but haven't yet bought into it totally. Often kids who were bullied themselves who are now passing it down to kids younger than them, because it was the example they have to follow.
I also think some people compartmentalize inside and have different sets of behavior for different situations. Like those poor women who find out they have been married to a serial killer all these years and no one can believe it about the guy because there just wasn't any clue. The man just never did the objectional behavior re his wife/family.
It's the us / them issue. It's okay to be mean to Them. Whatever the them might be. They would honestly not even think of being mean to anyone who fell in the Us category.
Re: What do others do?auctasinistraApril 14 2007, 22:35:34 UTC
But you know, I think bullies and nasty people can be happy inside. What makes them happy just isn't what makes other people happy. Bullying makes them feel successful.
I do agree with this - but the thing is, why? Why does hurting and belittling others make these people (temporarily) happy? And I've got to think, if you go deeper, it's about "If I make them smaller than me, that makes me bigger." And you've got to feel pretty small about yourself to need to hurt and humiliate others to feel big, you know? Or they hurt so much inside they need to strike out (or they hurt themselves, as some people do). They feel so powerless in some deep place that hurting others is the only power they can acquire in their lives. It just all seems to me to stem from a basic hunger for something inside, some lack, and to me (I've no doubt at all that I'm oversimplifying and generalizing - it's just how it seems to me) it seems like that something's got to be self-love.
Holy cow - I've gone from psychology to masturbation. Sheesh.
I agree, too, about the us/them thing. That's common throughout mankind. Whatever sort of person you are, you're more tolerant of those you recognize to be like you.
The thing is, you made Dudley a likeable bully, or at least a comprehensible bully. Getting into the heads of dislikeable people and looking out is the only way to make them likeable in any respect - and you portrayed him from inside his head. That was lovely, and it's hard to do with dislikeable people (But of course you know all this).
But don't you think (this at least is my theory) that bullies have particular problems with self esteem? I've always figured so many things could be traced back to that. A person who likes himself doesn't need to prove anything to others, whether it's "I'm cleverer than you" or "I'm prettier than you" or "I'm tougher than you"; he seems so unhappy in himself (like a lot of people who're shitty to others) that exercising his power of hurting others is the only way he can, for a little while, forget how little and pained he is inside, and let him pretend he's "big" in the ways that matter.
Reply
Don't be frightened, I'm going to try to make a link! Not that I know anything about this blog/post I am linking to, but it combined the ideas of several articles I had read in a short space.
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2005/01/self-esteem-is-not-necessarily-good.html
The idea that bullies actually have unearned self-esteem is interesting to me because it says to me that Petunia and Vernon more or less made Dudley into a bully, not only by allowing or encouraging it, but by their parenting / spoiling of their son. I've felt a little sorrier for Dudders since I thought about it. Talk about having no chance. I also think that should the artificial self esteem be exploded or proved false, Dudley would fall apart and need a LOT of professional help. And I do wonder how he would come out of that, and if he would then be a decent person and could eventually be friends with Harry.
But, it sounds like a novel and I am SO not writing that!
Reply
I haven't read any of the recent articles you mention, but I do wonder if it's merely a redefinition of terms ... I'd have to do some research. Only because it seems so obvious to me that abusers (of people or drugs), bullies, even overachievers are doing what they do to silence, at least temporarily, that voice inside saying "You suck. You're not good enough and you'll never be good enough and everyone hates you." It just makes sense to me (not that I'm anything resembling an expert). The people who love themselves (again, IMO) spend a lot less time boasting, showing off, medicating themselves into altered states, and putting other people down (physically or verbally) - because they don't need to. When you know you're cool, you got nothin' to prove to nobody. :) (And again, of course, I refer primarily to people without physical or psychological problems - just regular assholes *g*)
(Will read your linky thingy [well done!] in a bit when I'm not rushed)
Reply
But you know, I think bullies and nasty people can be happy inside. What makes them happy just isn't what makes other people happy. Bullying makes them feel successful. There are usually other people to give them positive feedback for their bad behavior, which feels good.
The folks who most feel uncertain or unhappy about bullying are kids who are trying out the bullying but haven't yet bought into it totally. Often kids who were bullied themselves who are now passing it down to kids younger than them, because it was the example they have to follow.
I also think some people compartmentalize inside and have different sets of behavior for different situations. Like those poor women who find out they have been married to a serial killer all these years and no one can believe it about the guy because there just wasn't any clue. The man just never did the objectional behavior re his wife/family.
It's the us / them issue. It's okay to be mean to Them. Whatever the them might be. They would honestly not even think of being mean to anyone who fell in the Us category.
Reply
I do agree with this - but the thing is, why? Why does hurting and belittling others make these people (temporarily) happy? And I've got to think, if you go deeper, it's about "If I make them smaller than me, that makes me bigger." And you've got to feel pretty small about yourself to need to hurt and humiliate others to feel big, you know? Or they hurt so much inside they need to strike out (or they hurt themselves, as some people do). They feel so powerless in some deep place that hurting others is the only power they can acquire in their lives. It just all seems to me to stem from a basic hunger for something inside, some lack, and to me (I've no doubt at all that I'm oversimplifying and generalizing - it's just how it seems to me) it seems like that something's got to be self-love.
Holy cow - I've gone from psychology to masturbation. Sheesh.
I agree, too, about the us/them thing. That's common throughout mankind. Whatever sort of person you are, you're more tolerant of those you recognize to be like you.
Reply
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