5% pleasure, 50% pain
December 11: heatherlayne_n asked me to talk about Tony Stark.
I'm limiting this to movieverse Tony, because no one needs to witness my vitriolic rant about 616!Tony ever again (far too many of you have been subjected to it in person, and I'm sorry you had to see me like that). I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Tony, so I have no grand unified theory of Tony Stark, so I'm just going to ramble on a bit about him.
I really loved the first Iron Man. I came out of it so pleased to find a superhero who was excited about what he could do as a hero, rather than seeing it as some terrible tragic burden (I recall comparing it to The Dark Knight, which came out that summer as well - I have never rewatched TDK, but I've watched Iron Man a number of times). I like that about Tony. That he has a sense of fun in what he's doing - that he's excited not just by the tech he's able to create and implement, but also by the idea of actually saving people.
I like that Tony's gotten a complete arc in the movies - we see him as douchebag rich guy playboy before Afghanistan, we see his trials as a hostage, and how deeply it marks him and how much Yinsen means to him, the one father figure who didn't betray him (though he did lie, I like to think Tony's forgiven Yinsen for that, even as he lives with his own survivor's guilt), we see him realize the value of the people closest to him - Pepper, Rhodey and even Happy - and also how his life of privileged rich white guy not giving a fuck had a serious and damaging impact on the world.
We see him try to deal with his daddy issues - not just Howard (which therapy would surely help with a lot, mostly because I subscribe to the Howard was cold, withholding, and neglectful but not physically abusive theory, and by the time you're in your forties you should know enough about life to be dealing with that shit in therapy not in the bottom of a bottle of scotch) but also Stane (tied with Pierce for the scariest - and most effective - MCU villain, imo) (so many of Tony's issues with SHIELD and Fury tie back to his problems with his father figures; I wish we knew anything at all about Maria Stark and whether she was a counterbalance to or a reinforcement of Howard's behavior). I really like that at least one prior-to-Yinsen father figure was a good influence - otherwise, I doubt Tony would have named and modeled JARVIS after him.
I like that in all three of Tony's movies, Pepper dispatches the main villain (Stane, Hammer, Aldrich) while Tony is otherwise occupied. I love Tony/Pepper and have since the first movie, because they are two people with complementary baggage, and I find myself completely uninterested in a Tony without a Pepper. To me, they go together like scotch and soda. (I also like Pepper and Rhodey more than I like Tony - I enjoy him in small doses, but his narcissism can be wearing.) I love that he made her a terrible "I'm dying" omelet and that he can't remember that she's allergic to strawberries, but she's willing to support his quest to become a better person - not for her, she knows better than that - but for himself.
I like that he reached out to Bruce, though I also think he didn't really think through what the differences between Bruce's hero's journey and his own. It's not that I don't think Tony can be empathetic, but I do think, like many of us, he has a hard time seeing beyond the blinders of his privilege. (I also really liked all the mirror imagery we got of Tony and Bruce in the Avengers; I think their relationship was one of the most successful parts of the movie.)
I like that by the end of Iron Man 3 we see him a much better place, both mentally and physically (and that's why I'm not really excited about Age of Ultron and Cap 3 centering on his issues again; let someone else take the spotlight now. I mean, I get why financially it makes sense for Marvel, but narratively speaking, even Avengers should have been Thor's show emotionally, rather than Tony's, and I don't know how interested I am in another round of "Tony no!" when there are so many other, more interesting stories (Natasha, Steve, Bucky, Sam) to tell.)
Otoh, if they wanted to make a Tony/Pepper drink martinis and solve murders while bantering and looking fabulous movie, like a modern day Nick and Nora Charles, that I'd be interested in watching.
Speaking of (former) billionaire playboy superheroes...
Arrow: The Climb
HOLY CRAP OLIVER. I mean, obviously he's not going to STAY dead, but what a way to end a lackluster half-season. The episode itself is a little clunky, in the way that Arrow can be - let's face it, Ra's is NEVER going to call Oliver "Detective" (I laughed when Diggle called Ollie one of the smartest people he knew) - and at first I was like, "Oh not this," when it did the "One day earlier" thing, but I thought the structure ended up working.
I've never been as vehemently opposed to the flashbacks as some people, and I thought here it was less about Oliver (though it was partly about Oliver) than it was about Maseo, showing how he came to be with the League. I had a moment of potential RAGE when I thought they'd actually killed Tatsu, but I am reassured that she's going to be showing up in the present, because WHY WOULD YOU CAST KATANA AND THEN NOT USE HER? Otoh, that's what they did with Shado so...
ANYWAY. I think the inclusion of Maseo here is for two reasons: 1. so someone can put Oliver in a Lazarus Pit posthaste (more on this below), and 2. to show that maybe the League isn't "good", but they do have a morality and a code that allowed both Sara and Maseo to rebuild themselves and find a place after horrible experiences. I mean, you know Oliver isn't going to kill Ra's Al Ghul, so eventually we might see them teaming up to take down Malcolm Merlyn. And then Thea has to atone at Nanda Parbat or something. I don't know. But I think Ra's and Nyssa both know Ollie's lying, though they might not know who he's protecting by doing so (other than protecting the innocents of Starling), though if they discovered it was a mind-controlled Thea (more on that in a minute too), they would probably respect his choice to protect her.
While I still think they guy they cast as Ra's doesn't have the charisma to pull off the role, I did like how they played the blessing at the end, and also how they wrote the fight so you think Oliver has a chance but lol no, he might be able to beat everyone else, but Ra's is still out of his league. No pun intended. (I also liked Ra's mentioning he killed his first man at 11, because it made me think of poor Damian, bred to be a body for Ra's to colonize, and forced to learn to kill at such a young age as well. Oh, Damian.)
So Oliver plunges to his death (so it's not so much a cliffhanger as a cliff-dropper?) and Maseo carts his dead ass to the Lazarus Pit, and we get a little crazy Oliver action? I mean, crazier. Because let's face it, Oliver is not the picture of mental health to begin with (nor would I expect him to be after his experiences; otoh, at least he doesn't dress up as a bat?), but in the comics at least (and in BtAS, iirc), the pit does have some damaging effect on people (well, on men - both Black Canary and Batwoman have taken a dip and come out mentally/metaphysically fine (metaphysically if the pit does indeed steal away bits of your soul); I don't know if Talia has ever done, but we know it maybe screwed with Jason's head, though being beaten to death with a crow bar and then blown up, after having been betrayed by his birth mother and apparently left unavenged by his adoptive father is really enough to screw anyone up, Lazarus Pit or no, so you can take that with a grain of salt, but I guess there's the whole "people who would use this power become corrupt and the ones who wouldn't be corrupted wouldn't choose to use it" kind of thing going on, or anyone who wants to live hundreds of years so they can cleanse the earth of whatever is probably already in need of some therapy and some good drugs).
And wow, that was a long digression (because JASON), so my point is, Maseo puts Oliver in the pit (possibly even on Ra's' orders - he does seem to have some respect for Oliver, though generally he doesn't like to share) and then we have to deal with a less mentally healthy Oliver (again, just dying/coming back could be traumatic enough to fuck him up more, no mystical properties of the Lazarus Pit needed, which might be the way I'd go with it on this show anyway) and a Thea who is being mentally controlled? I'd like to see how Felicity, Diggle (and Lyla? is this something ARGUS gets involved in?), Roy, and Laurel have to deal with that (and if Nyssa helps them because she knows Sara's real killer is still out there).
Though I would much rather Thea have done it purposefully if still under Malcolm's evil influence. Because horrified/apologetic Thea versus vengeful Laurel is less dramatic than willfully murderous Thea vs. vengeful Laurel. (And that would probably be one fight Thea could win.) (Also, this gives Thea and Roy more common ground - killing people while under the influence!)
Meanwhile, OH RAY PALMER NO. If Ray were meant to be a villain, I could accept his creepiness as part and parcel of that, but he's the Atom! He's meant to be a superhero! Only Brandon Routh's incredible charm makes that whole plotline not completely awful, and I still think it's pretty bad. I did love Felicity's "why does this keep happening to me?" though. She's superhero catnip! ♥
I also really loved Oliver's clarity of purpose: he'll do anything to protect his family and he loves Felicity. Oh heart. I mean, less on that first part, though that is totally in character and also wow, he's his mother's son, huh? (and I guess his father's too, but we didn't see enough of Robert Queen to get a real feel for him, imo - not that I need to see more!) I miss Moira.
Given that the first half of this season was kind of unfocused and less good than the show is capable of being, they did a great job of hooking me back in for the second half.
This is kind of when I miss the old LJ fannish culture the most, because it used to be that after one of my shows aired, I could hop on LJ and read a million+ reaction posts, but now for Arrow and Flash, it's basically me and vonniek, with occasional others chiming in. Sigh. I can't go on Tumblr at work, so that's right out. I just read the AV Club comments and feel nostalgic for when that kind of conversation would happen here.
+hyperbole!
***
This entry at DW: http://musesfool.dreamwidth.org/712506.html.
people have commented there.
I'm limiting this to movieverse Tony, because no one needs to witness my vitriolic rant about 616!Tony ever again (far too many of you have been subjected to it in person, and I'm sorry you had to see me like that). I don't spend a lot of time thinking about Tony, so I have no grand unified theory of Tony Stark, so I'm just going to ramble on a bit about him.
I really loved the first Iron Man. I came out of it so pleased to find a superhero who was excited about what he could do as a hero, rather than seeing it as some terrible tragic burden (I recall comparing it to The Dark Knight, which came out that summer as well - I have never rewatched TDK, but I've watched Iron Man a number of times). I like that about Tony. That he has a sense of fun in what he's doing - that he's excited not just by the tech he's able to create and implement, but also by the idea of actually saving people.
I like that Tony's gotten a complete arc in the movies - we see him as douchebag rich guy playboy before Afghanistan, we see his trials as a hostage, and how deeply it marks him and how much Yinsen means to him, the one father figure who didn't betray him (though he did lie, I like to think Tony's forgiven Yinsen for that, even as he lives with his own survivor's guilt), we see him realize the value of the people closest to him - Pepper, Rhodey and even Happy - and also how his life of privileged rich white guy not giving a fuck had a serious and damaging impact on the world.
We see him try to deal with his daddy issues - not just Howard (which therapy would surely help with a lot, mostly because I subscribe to the Howard was cold, withholding, and neglectful but not physically abusive theory, and by the time you're in your forties you should know enough about life to be dealing with that shit in therapy not in the bottom of a bottle of scotch) but also Stane (tied with Pierce for the scariest - and most effective - MCU villain, imo) (so many of Tony's issues with SHIELD and Fury tie back to his problems with his father figures; I wish we knew anything at all about Maria Stark and whether she was a counterbalance to or a reinforcement of Howard's behavior). I really like that at least one prior-to-Yinsen father figure was a good influence - otherwise, I doubt Tony would have named and modeled JARVIS after him.
I like that in all three of Tony's movies, Pepper dispatches the main villain (Stane, Hammer, Aldrich) while Tony is otherwise occupied. I love Tony/Pepper and have since the first movie, because they are two people with complementary baggage, and I find myself completely uninterested in a Tony without a Pepper. To me, they go together like scotch and soda. (I also like Pepper and Rhodey more than I like Tony - I enjoy him in small doses, but his narcissism can be wearing.) I love that he made her a terrible "I'm dying" omelet and that he can't remember that she's allergic to strawberries, but she's willing to support his quest to become a better person - not for her, she knows better than that - but for himself.
I like that he reached out to Bruce, though I also think he didn't really think through what the differences between Bruce's hero's journey and his own. It's not that I don't think Tony can be empathetic, but I do think, like many of us, he has a hard time seeing beyond the blinders of his privilege. (I also really liked all the mirror imagery we got of Tony and Bruce in the Avengers; I think their relationship was one of the most successful parts of the movie.)
I like that by the end of Iron Man 3 we see him a much better place, both mentally and physically (and that's why I'm not really excited about Age of Ultron and Cap 3 centering on his issues again; let someone else take the spotlight now. I mean, I get why financially it makes sense for Marvel, but narratively speaking, even Avengers should have been Thor's show emotionally, rather than Tony's, and I don't know how interested I am in another round of "Tony no!" when there are so many other, more interesting stories (Natasha, Steve, Bucky, Sam) to tell.)
Otoh, if they wanted to make a Tony/Pepper drink martinis and solve murders while bantering and looking fabulous movie, like a modern day Nick and Nora Charles, that I'd be interested in watching.
Speaking of (former) billionaire playboy superheroes...
Arrow: The Climb
HOLY CRAP OLIVER. I mean, obviously he's not going to STAY dead, but what a way to end a lackluster half-season. The episode itself is a little clunky, in the way that Arrow can be - let's face it, Ra's is NEVER going to call Oliver "Detective" (I laughed when Diggle called Ollie one of the smartest people he knew) - and at first I was like, "Oh not this," when it did the "One day earlier" thing, but I thought the structure ended up working.
I've never been as vehemently opposed to the flashbacks as some people, and I thought here it was less about Oliver (though it was partly about Oliver) than it was about Maseo, showing how he came to be with the League. I had a moment of potential RAGE when I thought they'd actually killed Tatsu, but I am reassured that she's going to be showing up in the present, because WHY WOULD YOU CAST KATANA AND THEN NOT USE HER? Otoh, that's what they did with Shado so...
ANYWAY. I think the inclusion of Maseo here is for two reasons: 1. so someone can put Oliver in a Lazarus Pit posthaste (more on this below), and 2. to show that maybe the League isn't "good", but they do have a morality and a code that allowed both Sara and Maseo to rebuild themselves and find a place after horrible experiences. I mean, you know Oliver isn't going to kill Ra's Al Ghul, so eventually we might see them teaming up to take down Malcolm Merlyn. And then Thea has to atone at Nanda Parbat or something. I don't know. But I think Ra's and Nyssa both know Ollie's lying, though they might not know who he's protecting by doing so (other than protecting the innocents of Starling), though if they discovered it was a mind-controlled Thea (more on that in a minute too), they would probably respect his choice to protect her.
While I still think they guy they cast as Ra's doesn't have the charisma to pull off the role, I did like how they played the blessing at the end, and also how they wrote the fight so you think Oliver has a chance but lol no, he might be able to beat everyone else, but Ra's is still out of his league. No pun intended. (I also liked Ra's mentioning he killed his first man at 11, because it made me think of poor Damian, bred to be a body for Ra's to colonize, and forced to learn to kill at such a young age as well. Oh, Damian.)
So Oliver plunges to his death (so it's not so much a cliffhanger as a cliff-dropper?) and Maseo carts his dead ass to the Lazarus Pit, and we get a little crazy Oliver action? I mean, crazier. Because let's face it, Oliver is not the picture of mental health to begin with (nor would I expect him to be after his experiences; otoh, at least he doesn't dress up as a bat?), but in the comics at least (and in BtAS, iirc), the pit does have some damaging effect on people (well, on men - both Black Canary and Batwoman have taken a dip and come out mentally/metaphysically fine (metaphysically if the pit does indeed steal away bits of your soul); I don't know if Talia has ever done, but we know it maybe screwed with Jason's head, though being beaten to death with a crow bar and then blown up, after having been betrayed by his birth mother and apparently left unavenged by his adoptive father is really enough to screw anyone up, Lazarus Pit or no, so you can take that with a grain of salt, but I guess there's the whole "people who would use this power become corrupt and the ones who wouldn't be corrupted wouldn't choose to use it" kind of thing going on, or anyone who wants to live hundreds of years so they can cleanse the earth of whatever is probably already in need of some therapy and some good drugs).
And wow, that was a long digression (because JASON), so my point is, Maseo puts Oliver in the pit (possibly even on Ra's' orders - he does seem to have some respect for Oliver, though generally he doesn't like to share) and then we have to deal with a less mentally healthy Oliver (again, just dying/coming back could be traumatic enough to fuck him up more, no mystical properties of the Lazarus Pit needed, which might be the way I'd go with it on this show anyway) and a Thea who is being mentally controlled? I'd like to see how Felicity, Diggle (and Lyla? is this something ARGUS gets involved in?), Roy, and Laurel have to deal with that (and if Nyssa helps them because she knows Sara's real killer is still out there).
Though I would much rather Thea have done it purposefully if still under Malcolm's evil influence. Because horrified/apologetic Thea versus vengeful Laurel is less dramatic than willfully murderous Thea vs. vengeful Laurel. (And that would probably be one fight Thea could win.) (Also, this gives Thea and Roy more common ground - killing people while under the influence!)
Meanwhile, OH RAY PALMER NO. If Ray were meant to be a villain, I could accept his creepiness as part and parcel of that, but he's the Atom! He's meant to be a superhero! Only Brandon Routh's incredible charm makes that whole plotline not completely awful, and I still think it's pretty bad. I did love Felicity's "why does this keep happening to me?" though. She's superhero catnip! ♥
I also really loved Oliver's clarity of purpose: he'll do anything to protect his family and he loves Felicity. Oh heart. I mean, less on that first part, though that is totally in character and also wow, he's his mother's son, huh? (and I guess his father's too, but we didn't see enough of Robert Queen to get a real feel for him, imo - not that I need to see more!) I miss Moira.
Given that the first half of this season was kind of unfocused and less good than the show is capable of being, they did a great job of hooking me back in for the second half.
This is kind of when I miss the old LJ fannish culture the most, because it used to be that after one of my shows aired, I could hop on LJ and read a million+ reaction posts, but now for Arrow and Flash, it's basically me and vonniek, with occasional others chiming in. Sigh. I can't go on Tumblr at work, so that's right out. I just read the AV Club comments and feel nostalgic for when that kind of conversation would happen here.
+hyperbole!
***
This entry at DW: http://musesfool.dreamwidth.org/712506.html.
people have commented there.