No. He's asking you to think about the repercussions of expressing your political views in such a public manner. Just because you're unhappy about the President and Congress's decision to attack Iraq doesn't necessarily give you the right to further the hostility in other countries. You want to burn a flag? Burn it in the privacy of your own home. Don't do it on the steps of the Capitol building where every anti-American fanatic who sees it is just going to grab onto it as some kind of sign that even Americans hate Americans.
You're entitled to your opinion. It's irresponsible to express it in a manner that causes danger to people you're supposedly trying to "bring home". All you're doing is making it more popular to ensure that they come home in boxes instead of boots.
It's also incredibly ungrateful. Personally I think burning the flag as a statement of anything should be a legal reason to revoke citizenship. If you're so displeased with America and showing it by burning the symbol of America that literally hundreds of thousands of Americans before you have died to protect, then leave. I direct you to the movie by the guy who moved to Canada because he was unhappy with America. Most of my family has served in the armed forces, and burning the symbol of our devotion because you're unhappy with the President is misguided, disillusioned and ill-conceived.
You want to make a bold statement? Move to Iraq and burn the flag there.
I disagree. Burning the flag is an powerful expression of anger against America. When a flag is burning, the person is directly saying to the American Govt "FUCK YOU!" They are not saying fuck America and they are not saying fuck the Americans who died for America.
And soldiers didnt die for the flag, they died for other Americans and the American way of life which is built on the very same thing that burning the flag represents: FREEDOM. It's a twisted truth but the truth just the same. If you accept your freedom of speech as much as any freedom allowed here in the states, you have to accept that it protects the very ugliest forms of free speech ie white power marches, Hustler magazine, burning of the flag...etc.
And you are entitled to disagree. But what you're failing to realize is that your message is lost because the people who see you "making your statement" are seeing it differently. To you, burning the flag is a gesture towards the government. To me it's a gesture against America. To foreign nations it's a gesture against what THEY see as America: our military.
The flag is the symbol for Americans and the American way of life. So when you say soldiers died for the those things, they died just as much for their symbol. I'm not saying you shouldn't be free to speak your opinion. But keep in mind, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are protected by the First Amendment. Freedom of burning is not. If you want to say fuck you to the American government, do so. Burning the flag is not speech, and it's certainly not "saying" what you think it says.
Re: my two centsmonenigmeJune 28 2005, 18:02:33 UTC
Tell you what then....
You make the sacrifice... you serve your government... you serve AMERICA and then you can do whatever the fuck you want to do with the flag. Until then, frankly, I don't feel you've earned the right.
Just because you were born in America doesn't mean that you have the moral right to piss on everyone who gave you the rights you have.
And yes, it is saying fuck the Americans who died for America.
And if you don't think so, go stand on the lawn of the Mother who's son just returned in a box and burn your flag there. See if she understands that you are "just saying fuck you to the government".
If you want to say fuck you to the government, place a flaming cross on the white house lawn.
Re: my two centsrnddawayJune 28 2005, 18:37:09 UTC
You're feeling more with your heart than thinking about the absolutes I describe. The flag is not holy. It is a symbol of America. It is a symbol of government. It is not the heart of our country. It is not America. It is a flag, a symbol.
Dont you lecture me about the sacrifices I make for my country. I would lay my life down tomorrow. So dont play me. I vote every year and I am a wayyyyyyyy underpaid teacher. I come from 3 generations of Marines. My father fought in Korea and Vietnam. His best friend was Abbie Hoffman..one of the original flag rage-ists.
If I want to burn the flag to get cheap attention to my cause, sorry, it should be protected under our laws.
Lastly, I am an American. So I earned the right to say whatever i want to say. THATS THE WHOLE POINT
Re: my two centsmonenigmeJune 28 2005, 18:45:06 UTC
Yeah, well I'm an American too, and I feel quite fine saying that:
I think it's pretty fucked up when anyone holds their right to free speech above another's right to life.
Go ahead, burn the flag. But in my mind, you might as well shoot a soldier while you're there.
At least call it for what it is and accept the responsibility it is.
I'm not going to comment further on this point. It's munkypham's journal and I'm not interested in anyone that holds their rights above my dear friends' and family's lives.
Appreciate your rights, but think twice please before actually excercising them.
Re: my two centsrnddawayJune 28 2005, 19:41:28 UTC
well that's America, protection for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Maybe what you are talking about belongs more in a dictatorship, than our democracy.
Not really. I'm not saying it should be illegal, I'm saying it should be illegal to do it in public venues. It's illegal to curse in a courtroom without stomping on a citizen's rights, it's LEGAL to outlaw foul language in public areas without stomping on a citizen's rights, I see nothing wrong with translating the same respect for decency. Burn it all you like. Promote burning all you like. Keep it in your home.
Something else a friend just made me realize something as I told her about this thread.
You're saying that your right to burn the flag is more important than my (or Kale's in this case) right to life. I'd say to you that you have the right to burn the flag. You also have the responsibility not to do it in a manner that endangers others. Whether you like it or not, public burning of the flag only serves to endanger the people who have to go overseas and be Americans.
You're entitled to your opinion. It's irresponsible to express it in a manner that causes danger to people you're supposedly trying to "bring home". All you're doing is making it more popular to ensure that they come home in boxes instead of boots.
It's also incredibly ungrateful. Personally I think burning the flag as a statement of anything should be a legal reason to revoke citizenship. If you're so displeased with America and showing it by burning the symbol of America that literally hundreds of thousands of Americans before you have died to protect, then leave. I direct you to the movie by the guy who moved to Canada because he was unhappy with America. Most of my family has served in the armed forces, and burning the symbol of our devotion because you're unhappy with the President is misguided, disillusioned and ill-conceived.
You want to make a bold statement? Move to Iraq and burn the flag there.
Reply
And soldiers didnt die for the flag, they died for other Americans and the American way of life which is built on the very same thing that burning the flag represents: FREEDOM. It's a twisted truth but the truth just the same. If you accept your freedom of speech as much as any freedom allowed here in the states, you have to accept that it protects the very ugliest forms of free speech ie white power marches, Hustler magazine, burning of the flag...etc.
Reply
The flag is the symbol for Americans and the American way of life. So when you say soldiers died for the those things, they died just as much for their symbol. I'm not saying you shouldn't be free to speak your opinion. But keep in mind, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are protected by the First Amendment. Freedom of burning is not. If you want to say fuck you to the American government, do so. Burning the flag is not speech, and it's certainly not "saying" what you think it says.
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You make the sacrifice... you serve your government... you serve AMERICA and then you can do whatever the fuck you want to do with the flag. Until then, frankly, I don't feel you've earned the right.
Just because you were born in America doesn't mean that you have the moral right to piss on everyone who gave you the rights you have.
And yes, it is saying fuck the Americans who died for America.
And if you don't think so, go stand on the lawn of the Mother who's son just returned in a box and burn your flag there. See if she understands that you are "just saying fuck you to the government".
If you want to say fuck you to the government, place a flaming cross on the white house lawn.
Burn the flag - THAT IS THE SYMBOL OF AMERICA.
What the fuck ELSE is it supposed to mean?
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Dont you lecture me about the sacrifices I make for my country. I would lay my life down tomorrow. So dont play me. I vote every year and I am a wayyyyyyyy underpaid teacher. I come from 3 generations of Marines. My father fought in Korea and Vietnam. His best friend was Abbie Hoffman..one of the original flag rage-ists.
If I want to burn the flag to get cheap attention to my cause, sorry, it should be protected under our laws.
Lastly, I am an American. So I earned the right to say whatever i want to say. THATS THE WHOLE POINT
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I think it's pretty fucked up when anyone holds their right to free speech above another's right to life.
Go ahead, burn the flag. But in my mind, you might as well shoot a soldier while you're there.
At least call it for what it is and accept the responsibility it is.
I'm not going to comment further on this point. It's munkypham's journal and I'm not interested in anyone that holds their rights above my dear friends' and family's lives.
Appreciate your rights, but think twice please before actually excercising them.
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I dont advoccate indecency. I advocate common sense and consideration for others. I advocate "not burning" the flag to saves lives in Iraq.
But I do not dictate to my countrymen. I vote with them. That's where my voice lies.
Enough already.
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You're saying that your right to burn the flag is more important than my (or Kale's in this case) right to life. I'd say to you that you have the right to burn the flag. You also have the responsibility not to do it in a manner that endangers others. Whether you like it or not, public burning of the flag only serves to endanger the people who have to go overseas and be Americans.
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