But I don't _want_ to see naked people. We live in a clothed culture. By all means emigrate somewhere where nakedness is normal everywhere, but I like the social distance that clothes provide.
I don't _want_ to see people in ugly clothes. I don't _want_ to hear rap "music". I don't _want_ to smell cigarette smoke. Unfortunately, I just have to harden up. _You_ may feel that we are a clothed culture, but it's not exactly that simple. Or maybe you haven't been to Golden Bay?
Re: Normality doesn't countmuerkJanuary 8 2008, 09:55:30 UTC
If we aren't allowed to take offence (at least in terms of laws) what about sex in public? How do we draw the line.
Is it a consent issue? In which case, how can I opt out to consenting to see naked people? I suspect that even if your arguments are the more valid, it's still going to swing my way given the emotional reaction of average voters seeing a bunch of naked people (other than porn stars on motorbikes in the CBD or topless women on beaches).
It's not like I'm prudish per se. Nursing aiding and nursing training for a year and a half - I've seen (and touched) plenty of naked folk. Toileting and showering and whatnot, it all involves nudity. But I don't want to be walking down the street on a nice spring day and see naked people. It's not the greatest argument, I admit that.
Re: A separate issuemuerkJanuary 8 2008, 22:43:25 UTC
I agree with you that nudity does not necessitate sex.
Public sex is all good too, for the same reasons. A person's nakidity and sexual activity between consenting agents has no effect on anyone else's ability to go about their normal business.
Well, your argument is logically consistent, I'll give you that.
Out of a mild interest, what about minors wandering around? Explicit sex, in movies for example, gets an R18 because it's harmful to expose children to images of explicit sex. In fact it's abusive to do so.
Re: A separate issuehungrymamaJanuary 8 2008, 23:08:55 UTC
Is there really harm (assuming we strip away the layers of culture) in a child witnessing an act of loving sex between two consenting adults? I'm not entirely comfortable with it but I'm not, logically sure why.
I can see that it would need to be made explicitly clear that sex is an adult activity that children shouldn't attempt (but then so is driving), and there are certainly some sexual practices (specifically those involving pain or humiliation) that, while OK between consenting adults, I wouldn't want my kids seeing but I'm really not sure that there are good, non-cultural reasons for keeping sex private.
Re: A separate issuemuerkJanuary 8 2008, 23:18:33 UTC
Driving and sex are in different categories of behavior IMO. I don't think children are emotionally prepared to witness sexual activity. I don't think children are emotionally developed enough to witness it. AFAIK no culture allows children to witness sex, even ones where nudity is acceptable. I could be wrong though on that.
Re: A separate issuehungrymamaJanuary 8 2008, 23:42:04 UTC
But WHAT exactly is it about sex that kids wouldn't be able to handle. I admit to being profoundly uncomfortable with the idea and I'm certainly not going to be letting my kids see anything explicitly sexual for a while yet but I'm not sure what differentiates sex from other activities.
For example I was completely prepared for Crispin to witness the birth of his brother (though as it happened there wasn't time to wake him). He has seen plenty of photos and videos of birth as he was fascinated during and after my pregnancy so we ran with it and I was comfortable with that.
I have no idea if any cultures specifically allow children to witness sex but I'm fairly sure that where people live communally in a single room some sex probably does get witnessed.
Re: A separate issuemuerkJanuary 9 2008, 00:01:23 UTC
Birth isn't as intimate as sex. Some people have their parents there when they give birth. I can't imagine people having their parents watching them have sex.
Some cultures have had ritual sex publicly, ie. king and high priestess, but that was a highly stylized and symbolic ritual within a religious context.
shoei made the point that re: driving, kids don't have their own equipment, whereas with sex...
Re: A separate issuemuerkJanuary 9 2008, 04:12:07 UTC
I disagree that my assertion is unfounded. Psychologists have researched the sexualisation of children and it's harmful to them.
But even aside from minors, I'm still against public sex completely and I'm against public nudity. Thankfully, most other people probably are too, so I don't have to move to Alaska or Siberia where the frostbite solves the problem :)
It doesn't matter how rational or logically valid your arguments are, I'm am happily culturally indoctrinated and not going to change my mind. When the law changes I'll take that plane to the frozen wastelands and the weather will do the job for me.
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Is it a consent issue? In which case, how can I opt out to consenting to see naked people? I suspect that even if your arguments are the more valid, it's still going to swing my way given the emotional reaction of average voters seeing a bunch of naked people (other than porn stars on motorbikes in the CBD or topless women on beaches).
It's not like I'm prudish per se. Nursing aiding and nursing training for a year and a half - I've seen (and touched) plenty of naked folk. Toileting and showering and whatnot, it all involves nudity. But I don't want to be walking down the street on a nice spring day and see naked people. It's not the greatest argument, I admit that.
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Public sex is all good too, for the same reasons. A person's nakidity and sexual activity between consenting agents has no effect on anyone else's ability to go about their normal business.
Well, your argument is logically consistent, I'll give you that.
Out of a mild interest, what about minors wandering around? Explicit sex, in movies for example, gets an R18 because it's harmful to expose children to images of explicit sex. In fact it's abusive to do so.
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I can see that it would need to be made explicitly clear that sex is an adult activity that children shouldn't attempt (but then so is driving), and there are certainly some sexual practices (specifically those involving pain or humiliation) that, while OK between consenting adults, I wouldn't want my kids seeing but I'm really not sure that there are good, non-cultural reasons for keeping sex private.
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For example I was completely prepared for Crispin to witness the birth of his brother (though as it happened there wasn't time to wake him). He has seen plenty of photos and videos of birth as he was fascinated during and after my pregnancy so we ran with it and I was comfortable with that.
I have no idea if any cultures specifically allow children to witness sex but I'm fairly sure that where people live communally in a single room some sex probably does get witnessed.
Reply
Some cultures have had ritual sex publicly, ie. king and high priestess, but that was a highly stylized and symbolic ritual within a religious context.
shoei made the point that re: driving, kids don't have their own equipment, whereas with sex...
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Come to think of that we managed that though I don't think it's something I would plan.
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But even aside from minors, I'm still against public sex completely and I'm against public nudity. Thankfully, most other people probably are too, so I don't have to move to Alaska or Siberia where the frostbite solves the problem :)
It doesn't matter how rational or logically valid your arguments are, I'm am happily culturally indoctrinated and not going to change my mind. When the law changes I'll take that plane to the frozen wastelands and the weather will do the job for me.
Reply
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