The "Pangs" stuff was silliness to me. The stuff in "Never Leave Me" bothered me because they compared it to the Angel/Angelus situation, but that was just clearly so wrong...I don't know.
Therefore, I don't think that it's a war between demon vs. man, but so much as warring with emotions.
I think Spike, at least, does make some distinction between his demon and his human aspects. This isn't to say he has a split personality or that it's a strict distinction. I don't think I've seen anybody argue that. However, the make-up of a vampire is such that he is a being that started as a human that had a demon enter him. That demon, to Spike, can appear to have its own, conflicting motivations on him.
From S5 on, though, Spike is trying to be "a kind of man". At the end of S5, he tells Buffy that he knows he's a monster (demon), but that she treats him like a man.
Buffy even recognizes this in Never Leave Me when she says, "You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back
( ... )
...It's not so much a "personality disorder" as it is a way for Spike to recognize the different parts of his own personality...It's just an easy shorthand for distinguishing the conflicting motivations and desires that Spike...has by his very nature.
That's all I meant :) But not just his nature--we all do. Or to be 'verse specific, they all did. It wasn't something that was limited to vampires or demons--the humans did as well, and there are countless examples of that throughout both series.
And tangent but not really--Anya/Anyanka/Aud really pissed me off when she had the nerve to say that William the Bloody thing, cause hello...
Well, not everybody had a demon in them. I think that adds a special extra-specialness to Spike's conflict as it also speaks to the mythology of vampires in the show (and is controversial for just that reason).
And tangent but not really--Anya/Anyanka/Aud really pissed me off when she had the nerve to say that William the Bloody thing, cause hello...
I'd have to watch the episode again. I don't recall it annoying me, but then Anya is often callous and hypocritical (as are a lot of the characters' attitudes towards her...until that gets handily dealt with in Selfless).
But not just his nature--we all do. Or to be 'verse specific, they all did. It wasn't something that was limited to vampires or demons--the humans did as well
But isn't that what BtVS did? Use the supernatural to depict metaphorical demons as real, actual demons?
It's pretty common for people to feel they have conflicting sides to their personality. We appeal to someone's better nature. Our conscience pricks us. We give way to our baser desires. With vampires, the show makes this conflict literal - they have an actual demon inside them urging them to commit mayhem and destruction.
With vampires, the show makes this conflict literal - they have an actual demon inside them urging them to commit mayhem and destruction.
But considering that the vampire is the demon, that makes no sense. Vampires are vampires with a human countenance--they aren't demons fighting with a human personality. Something like that could possibly be expressed with oh say Hyena Xander, which was due to a spell.
The vampire metaphor also doesn't work due to the fact that the humans on both shows committed mayhem and destruction all on their lonesome,without the aide of a demon inside.
I assume you meant "vampires are demons with a human countenance"? But I don't think that's true. A vampire is a human corpse animated by a demon, and the demon has access to the former human's memories (and often therefore becomes influenced by the human's character traits). They're not just demons, like, say, Clem.
And remember 'The Dark Age' where Angel's demon and Eyghon have a fight inside Angel's body. :-)
The vampire metaphor also doesn't work due to the fact that the humans on both shows committed mayhem and destruction all on their lonesome,without the aide of a demon inside.
But that's like saying that the metaphor of Angel as the bad boyfriend, who pretends to respect you until you sleep with him then dumps you, doesn't work because later on the show had Parker doing exactly the same thing to Buffy in a non-metaphorical, literal way.
No, I meant vampires are vampires, because they aren't purer breeds of demons. And yes, Angel's demon fought Eyghon, but that's different--that was a literal fight between two entities in a body--one foreign, Eyghon, and the one that was supposed to be there, Angel's demon
( ... )
There's quite a lot of fanfic that has 'William/the soul' and 'the demon' acting like separate personalities arguing in Spike's head. Plus all the fics that have Spike thinking about 'the demon' as if it's a separate entity. For those authors it seems to be a literal multiple personality situation. Not a view I subscribe to, but it is out there.
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BUFFY: Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?
WILLOW: Different like "William the Bloody" type different?
Yeah...
Bah.
Er, not to you :P
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Therefore, I don't think that it's a war between demon vs. man, but so much as warring with emotions.
I think Spike, at least, does make some distinction between his demon and his human aspects. This isn't to say he has a split personality or that it's a strict distinction. I don't think I've seen anybody argue that. However, the make-up of a vampire is such that he is a being that started as a human that had a demon enter him. That demon, to Spike, can appear to have its own, conflicting motivations on him.
From S5 on, though, Spike is trying to be "a kind of man". At the end of S5, he tells Buffy that he knows he's a monster (demon), but that she treats him like a man.
Buffy even recognizes this in Never Leave Me when she says, "You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back ( ... )
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That's all I meant :) But not just his nature--we all do. Or to be 'verse specific, they all did. It wasn't something that was limited to vampires or demons--the humans did as well, and there are countless examples of that throughout both series.
And tangent but not really--Anya/Anyanka/Aud really pissed me off when she had the nerve to say that William the Bloody thing, cause hello...
Reply
And tangent but not really--Anya/Anyanka/Aud really pissed me off when she had the nerve to say that William the Bloody thing, cause hello...
I'd have to watch the episode again. I don't recall it annoying me, but then Anya is often callous and hypocritical (as are a lot of the characters' attitudes towards her...until that gets handily dealt with in Selfless).
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But isn't that what BtVS did? Use the supernatural to depict metaphorical demons as real, actual demons?
It's pretty common for people to feel they have conflicting sides to their personality. We appeal to someone's better nature. Our conscience pricks us. We give way to our baser desires. With vampires, the show makes this conflict literal - they have an actual demon inside them urging them to commit mayhem and destruction.
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But considering that the vampire is the demon, that makes no sense. Vampires are vampires with a human countenance--they aren't demons fighting with a human personality. Something like that could possibly be expressed with oh say Hyena Xander, which was due to a spell.
The vampire metaphor also doesn't work due to the fact that the humans on both shows committed mayhem and destruction all on their lonesome,without the aide of a demon inside.
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I assume you meant "vampires are demons with a human countenance"? But I don't think that's true. A vampire is a human corpse animated by a demon, and the demon has access to the former human's memories (and often therefore becomes influenced by the human's character traits). They're not just demons, like, say, Clem.
And remember 'The Dark Age' where Angel's demon and Eyghon have a fight inside Angel's body. :-)
The vampire metaphor also doesn't work due to the fact that the humans on both shows committed mayhem and destruction all on their lonesome,without the aide of a demon inside.
But that's like saying that the metaphor of Angel as the bad boyfriend, who pretends to respect you until you sleep with him then dumps you, doesn't work because later on the show had Parker doing exactly the same thing to Buffy in a non-metaphorical, literal way.
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<--has come across several of such fics.
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