"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?" - Epicurus
The argument that I subscribe to is that the prevention evil would mean not only an elimination of any kind of free will, but also a fundamentally different kind of existence. Imagine, if you will, that everytime a person tried to strike another person with a stick that stick became as light as a feather. How would such a universe function? What if you were going to hit that person with a stick to keep them from falling off a cliff?
ummm are you arguing against the miracles of the bible? cause god and/or jesus deffinently interjected and raised people from the dead and all that in the bible. if you believe that than you can NOT suggest that god cant stop someone from hitting someone else with a stick.
The principle is that miracles are special because they happen only in certain circumstances. If people were constantly being raised from the dead, or never dying, then the world would have to operate in a fundamentally different way. Another example might be that if fish and bread always multiplied to feed any number of people necessary, then very soon the world would be over run with bones from all these dead fish
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Well, I would say that evil is defiantly an off-shoot of man's selfish nature. The dog that knocks things off the table would be adding another god to the mix.
You raise some good points that I'll have to think more on, but my basic position is that evil is a side-effect of the nature of the universe. The question of God's goodness or power in this is one that I also need to think more on.
Here's another one, I'd like to see what you think. I once heard the argument that if God was responsible for killing babies(ie. that God had the ability to prevent it and chooses not to, a bit different from my argument), then not only would the deaths of those babies not be wrong, but it would in fact be good, even the best possible good. This from the assumption that God is good and cannot do wrong, so anything that we might perceive as God doing wrong is an error in our perception.
haha.. I meant poor perception, not poop perception.
so... i want to post the initial question again and I cant accept these answers:
1) he cant make nonsense make sense (which is what raising the dead and walking on water is...) 2) the evil that is done is actually good, we just cant see that because we are just human and not perfect. (this is a familiar arguement because its how our president, lil georgie bush, justifies the iraq war)
but shouldnt there be an answer if god truly exists? id like you to think about oxams razor... the simplest answer would be that there is no answer because we are arguing about something that doesnt exist. its like saying "do you think unicorns eat marbles, if they dont is it because they cant? they dont want to or just never thought about it?" it doesnt have an answer much like the original question doesnt really have an answer...
ok i will accept that god is unable and unwilling. but if I do that then I am gonna ask.. whats his purpose?
yes obviously problems arise with trying to get god (if he/she exists) out of this little jam cause if god really did exist we wouldnt need to have this debate.
im an optimist and a dreaer. i think its REALLY fun to think about a universe without cancer, aids, malaria, lice, etc.... see, i understand theft and murder and human frailty what I dont understand is how god can allow those things that i listed. they are unnecessary and he could easily do away with them if he felt so moved. I feel moved and i am supposed to be made in gods image so why isnt he so moved to end some suffering. im not even asking for all suffering, or for him to make some alternate universe like you mentioned.
I still maintain that the point is arguing for a different creation/universe. Cancer, for example, is unregulated reproduction of cells. It is a broken version of the essential process of life. If you want to believe that the world is fallen and broken, then it is just another aspect of creation being perverted.
As for God's purpose, then we're getting into another argument. To take a Christian perspective, God's purpose would be simply to exist. It kind of goes along with my argument that God's goodness means that whatever He does has to be good, even if we might perceive it as wrong. I think that such seeming contradictions are totally consistent with the Bible's portrayal of a God who destroys worlds and nations and also promises love for all people.
If you want to argue the philosophical concept of God separate from the Bible, I'm not as versed but my understanding is that in that case he is basically a prime mover, and worshiping him would be akin to worshiping gravity.
allright. i understand how you see god but you should understand that god cursed the world and made it fall and all created cancer and all that for all eternity and basicly fucked everyone over just cause some lady (that never existed) ate a fruit froma tree.... thats one hell of an asshole god ya got there.
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You raise some good points that I'll have to think more on, but my basic position is that evil is a side-effect of the nature of the universe. The question of God's goodness or power in this is one that I also need to think more on.
Here's another one, I'd like to see what you think. I once heard the argument that if God was responsible for killing babies(ie. that God had the ability to prevent it and chooses not to, a bit different from my argument), then not only would the deaths of those babies not be wrong, but it would in fact be good, even the best possible good. This from the assumption that God is good and cannot do wrong, so anything that we might perceive as God doing wrong is an error in our perception.
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so... i want to post the initial question again and I cant accept these answers:
1) he cant make nonsense make sense (which is what raising the dead and walking on water is...)
2) the evil that is done is actually good, we just cant see that because we are just human and not perfect. (this is a familiar arguement because its how our president, lil georgie bush, justifies the iraq war)
but shouldnt there be an answer if god truly exists? id like you to think about oxams razor... the simplest answer would be that there is no answer because we are arguing about something that doesnt exist. its like saying "do you think unicorns eat marbles, if they dont is it because they cant? they dont want to or just never thought about it?" it doesnt have an answer much like the original question doesnt really have an answer...
Reply
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yes obviously problems arise with trying to get god (if he/she exists) out of this little jam cause if god really did exist we wouldnt need to have this debate.
im an optimist and a dreaer. i think its REALLY fun to think about a universe without cancer, aids, malaria, lice, etc.... see, i understand theft and murder and human frailty what I dont understand is how god can allow those things that i listed. they are unnecessary and he could easily do away with them if he felt so moved. I feel moved and i am supposed to be made in gods image so why isnt he so moved to end some suffering. im not even asking for all suffering, or for him to make some alternate universe like you mentioned.
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As for God's purpose, then we're getting into another argument. To take a Christian perspective, God's purpose would be simply to exist. It kind of goes along with my argument that God's goodness means that whatever He does has to be good, even if we might perceive it as wrong. I think that such seeming contradictions are totally consistent with the Bible's portrayal of a God who destroys worlds and nations and also promises love for all people.
If you want to argue the philosophical concept of God separate from the Bible, I'm not as versed but my understanding is that in that case he is basically a prime mover, and worshiping him would be akin to worshiping gravity.
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