Masculinity and Femininity

[mostlyfoo]

Okay so mr_jez requested some discussion of masculine and feminine, which I'll give a first draft go.

Comments

[brightroar]

I must say I find your gender+ posts to be really interesting.

Regarding masculinity and femininity - personally I had a bit of a struggle getting my head around that whole concept, it's only in the last few years I've been at peace with it. It never even occurred to me to talk to anybody about it at the time so I kind of just muddled through it on my own. I didn't really realise that it was a "thing" and there were people out there that could help point me in the direction of answers. Having gender roles quite forcefully projected on me as a child and teenager kind of messed with my head (I didn't even know what "gender roles" were until I started staying up late and being dragged into interesting corners of the internet, age 20). So I spent many unhappy years violently asserting my identity as ALL OF THE FEMALE but actively rejecting and deriding all of my feminine traits in favour of the masculine ones I was told I couldn't or shouldn't have because only boys do that. Except my sexuality, which I wielded like a weapon in the faces of anybody who dared try and look closer. I still do this, and more than I'd like - have you ever seen a conversation get completely sidetracked by my boobs? They are my shield against conversations that make me defensive (though in the spirit of full disclosure, I also sometimes do this if I'm just plain bored). It's a difficult habit to unlearn. Attacking (and in a roundabout way, also defending) my own femininity with my female sexual characteristics - what kind of cognitive dissonance must be employed to make that make ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER? My brain is scary. I guess sometimes it's easier to be treated like an object than to actually address a problem - I know how to deal with being an object (usually overplay it so it turns into a joke, and then everybody is laughing including me and whatever got my back up is diffused). I'm not so good at the other thing when it comes to things so personal, but weirdly it's more difficult amongst friends - I've no issue giving strangers a brief explanation and a long telling-off, but it's often difficult confronting friends on issues that Matter to me.

I still get comments sometimes varying from surprised to spiteful if I start talking about "traditional" feminine hobbies and interests like pretty dresses and flowers and babies and glitter and makeup in a positive way (recently, "what the hell do you know about mascara, you're basically a man?" - fuck you very much, asshat). I guess I don't project as "traditionally" feminine a lot of the time? Though I've come to suspect it may be something to do with the people I hang out with - most of my common interests with my most immediate circles fall into the neutral or traditionally "masculine" categories (according to the social constructs I was given as a young'un, also the majority of my closest friends are male, whatever that means), so why WOULD I start talking about shoes and shopping or whatever with these people? And if that's actually what's happening, it's perfectly reasonable and makes sense. It's kind of a shame I haven't found much of an outlet for my "feminine" side, I don't think many people round here have seen it, and I personally quite like it.

I've now written the word "feminine(+suffix)" enough times that I'm not sure I know what it means anymore, and I'm not even sure I did in the first place. The bits of myself I consider feminine are kind of squishy. They are gentle and kind and sometimes a bit wishy-washy, and I feel that when presented they are often mistaken for and treated as a weakness, and many attempts have been made to exploit them. So I put them away unless I feel absolutely safe, and flaunt the more-socially-accepted neutral and masculine bits because it's easier.

I don't know if that made sense or was on-topic, it's been a long and wearisome day.

[mostlyfoo]

Eh, I'm not sure that people can point you too much to answers, there was a great article recently from Zinnia Jones, although it was actually talking about transition, I think it applies to all kinds of self-knowing stuff, suggesting But there are no cheat codes, and you can’t just skip “all that”, which I agree with, other people can provide useful information, or hints, or thoughts that occurred to them to try and point in what they hope is a useful direction but everyone has to go through "all that" themselves.

It's something that I've seen discussed as a problem we have culturally, that while we're starting to get more on board with the whole "men and women are equal" idea somehow we're shifting to, or never got away from, the idea that "masculine" behaviours are superior to "feminine" ones. But I like hearing your POV on this as its not something I've experienced really at all yet, so I can't really talk about it that well (beyond looking at some of my own behaviours and going "Oh fuck me I'm shitty sometimes"), and yeah the whole idea of internalised values so that you're attacking yourself is kind of a whole bunch of no fun.

Also I can totally get the telling off friends thing, calling people I'll never meet again on their bullshit is much easier I think, because I'm not invested in the relationship and just want to be treated like a human.

But people who are my friends, I kind of want them to be good people, and I mostly want them to agree with my values because (a) I think my values are pretty awesome, or I'd try and change them and (b) I find it harder to tell them that something they said was a bit shitty in case they derail it, and I end up getting snappy and pissed off about it (something I'm liable to do on this whole topic) and then I'm acting like a eedjit over a throw away comment.

Thank you for attempting to describe what it is that you feel :) I'll try and have a go soon I think as I've wussed out too much.

[brightroar]

Perhaps not answers in the A+B=C sort of way, but I think it would have given me some peace to know that what I was feeling was actually a reasonably normal thing that happens to hundreds of people. When it comes to identity issues it felt like what I was feeling just wasn't valid compared to trans or gay issues and I had no right to complain about it. I was comfortable enough with my sexuality for it to be a non issue and my issues regarding gender/femininity felt so insignificant compared to trans/gay/etc, it all felt a bit unworthy.

As a teen in London I got bombarded with sex ed, and handed stacks of leaflets explaining LGBT (as it was known at the time, I think there's a Q in there now?) issues and info about where to get help. Here, have some condoms and incredibly comprehensive descriptions of how all your bits work. Want an abortion? No problem, here's a bunch of helplines and some clinic addresses and counselling. Got an STD? Here's your three local GUM clinics. Gay? Here's a rainbow badge, six helplines, a support group and a biscuit. Trans? Here's a bunch of counselling helplines and suggestions on how to discuss it with your GP, parents, friends, whatever. It was pretty great all things considered.

However, vague and confused uncomfortableness with expressing and internalising the ideas of masculinity and femininity didn't really fit in any of the boxes I was offered, until I accidentally discovered feminism (wrong word but I can't think of a better one - groups of people, mostly women, who had words for the things I only knew as feelings) a bit too late for it to be of help (as I'd mostly figured it out by then), though it did allow me to finish placing it all into context and understand why I had those issues. There was a whole fucking world out there of people having these issues or similar, and I'd just spent years feeling isolated, alone and furious. If I'd found it sooner, at least two of those things could have been solved which would have been nice.