Jossverse morality: updated? (musings on recent IDW comics)
This is a compilation from my posts on different forums (BuffyForums, SlayAlive, BuffyBoards, IDW Forums) - I wanted to collect my random thoughts in one post
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the idea of souled!Dru is insanely cool. I've always felt sorry for her, and I'd love to see her regain control of her life.
Agree! This is a chance to tell an absolutely new story about her. If Joss really plans to turn Spike into a (more foolhardy) Mal Reynolds, why not reinvent Dru as a new River?
Also, to my surprise, the thought of a S9 Buffy/souled!Spike/souled!Dru triangle actually makes me giddy. I don't think it could fly post-Chosen or post-NFA, but Spike and Buffy have been distanced enough in the comics that I could see souled!Dru posing an actual romantic threat.
I know that I should be against this idea, as a Spuffy shipper - but I'm not. Partly because I know that Joss will always keep Buffy miserable - so he'd better make her jealous of Drusilla than engage poor Buffster in space-frak.
maybe Spike can keep passing his soul around the merry-go-round when ppl need it, which could force Buffy to reexamine her beliefs and up the Dru ante
Heee! It could be a great twist!
Back in 2004 I toyed with an idea for a fic: Fred is brought back soulless and Spike grants her his soul, because soulless Fred starts to invent cool weapons that could destroy humanity.
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Hmm, I'm not sure I'd want Dru to be a River, though. I don't like the idea of Dru being useful only as a weapon (River is much more than that, but it does take her a while to get there) or as being completely crazy. I don't think she could ever be fully sane again, but I'd prefer to see her some of her faculties return, as well as her chaste, mature human personality. My ideal Dru would be one who felt guilt for her past but was also rational enough to realize that Angelus made her into a looney tune and deserves most of the blame. I'd love if Buffy had to come to terms with a wise, more-or-less sane Dru who appreciated all that Spike had done for her over the century and had a lot more in common with Spike than Buffy (in terms of their Victorian upbringing). Plus, I think Joss used up his pseudo-River in the Buffyverse with Dana. Dru has so much more potential.
I know that I should be against this idea, as a Spuffy shipper - but I'm not.
Hee, same! My canon endgame will always be Spuffy, but I don't consider the comics canon and I think comics!Buffy at least has become so far divorced from *real* Buffy in "Chosen" that I might actually be able to support comics!Spike/Other.
Back in 2004 I toyed with an idea for a fic: Fred is brought back soulless and Spike grants her his soul
THAT IS SO COOL. Spike would totally do it, too, for Fred. Oh man, and with Wes dead I could even support Spike/Fred. Seriously, that's an awesome idea.
If I have time in the next few days I may write a post on what the soul means to me. Would you mind if I linked to your post as a comic reference?
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Hmm, I'm not sure I'd want Dru to be a River, though. I don't like the idea of Dru being useful only as a weapon (River is much more than that, but it does take her a while to get there) or as being completely crazy.
I never regarded River as just a weapon. To me, she was a complex, tragic figure with enormous capacity to feel compassion and desire to protect people. I remember reading fics in which she turns out to be a slayer of the future.
I don't think she could ever be fully sane again, but I'd prefer to see her some of her faculties return, as well as her chaste, mature human personality. My ideal Dru would be one who felt guilt for her past but was also rational enough to realize that Angelus made her into a looney tune and deserves most of the blame.
Joss tends to kill off non-Scoobie characters who are good people (Tara, Fred), so I hope that Dru won't turn too good. (But, of course, it's strictly theoretical: souled Dru is unprecedented, I haven't the least idea what happens next).
I'd love if Buffy had to come to terms with a wise, more-or-less sane Dru who appreciated all that Spike had done for her over the century and had a lot more in common with Spike than Buffy (in terms of their Victorian upbringing).
I'd love to see Buffy jealous and insecure and mad at Spike, and hating herself for pettiness, and eventually accepting Dru after some trials...
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To me, she was a complex, tragic figure with enormous capacity to feel compassion and desire to protect people. I remember reading fics in which she turns out to be a slayer of the future.
She definitely is much more than a weapon, but I feel like most of her growth occurred in the movie, and I'd rather see a faster self-actualization for Dru. Another big difference for me is that Dru seems so much older than River. Though I know some of it is Juliet Landau and Dru is actually probably supposed to be in her early twenties, human Dru seemed much older and at a different stage in her life than River. I think Snick wrote a fic about River being a future slayer and meeting Spike; it's quite good.
I'd love to see Buffy jealous and insecure and mad at Spike, and hating herself for pettiness, and eventually accepting Dru after some trials...
YES...jealous, insecure Buffy and mature Dru would be superb.
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*grovels*
"Back in 2004 I toyed with an idea for a fic: Fred is brought back soulless and Spike grants her his soul"
Did you ever write that story, Moscow? I remember when you talked about the idea, and when you wondered if that was what the comics would do. If you've written the fic, I'd love to read it! :)
THAT IS SO COOL. Spike would totally do it, too, for Fred. Oh man, and with Wes dead I could even support Spike/Fred. Seriously, that's an awesome idea.
I'd give anything in the world if Dark Horse would bring Fred back to life, especially since there's so many interesting things like this that they could do with her story! (I thought that IDW had done it, until the horrible reveal that it wasn't Fred after all, but only Illyria mimicking her.) I'm praying that everyone who wants Fred back will write to Dark Horse and tell them so. It wouldn't mean getting rid of Illyria; surely there's room in the comics for both characters!
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Did you ever write that story, Moscow?
I tried to break it down a couple of times, but failed. The problem is, I'm not sure that soulless Fred needs a soul more than Spike. Then again, she's a brilliant scientist, so she could invent something very dangerous without thinking about consequences, putting her own scientific curiosity or pride of a trailblazer above humanity's interests...
I have to think about this possible plot again.
It wouldn't mean getting rid of Illyria; surely there's room in the comics for both characters!
I think it largely depends on the overall theme in season 9. Bringing back Fred sans soul could be very topical if -- very big IF -- Joss plans to subvert traditional mythology of the soul.
It's pure speculation, but we know that Joss loves making Buffy miserable and he loves to surpass himself. To trump the level of angst of season 9, he has to come up with something earth-shattering in season 9. I think there is a distant possibility that in season 9 Buffy will find out that souls are not as crucial as The Council wanted her to believe. That Spike isn't the only soulless creature who could choose the path of good. In that situation, the return of soulless Fred - an innately good person - could be a fascinating twist!
That said, I shudder in advance, imagining how Joss could torture poor Fred.
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True! There's so many ways that VampFred could be portrayed: totally evil; Pylea-crazy to a higher degree; cold-blooded scientist; nice but amoral like Harmony...
In 2007 Nebula wrote a 27-chapter alternate reality AtS Season 5 fic called "Her Saving Grace", in which Fred is attacked in an alley, killed, and turned...and awakens as a very confused vampire. Souled Spike helps her in her efforts to be good without a soul, and to adjust to what she's lost and what she's gained by being turned. I love Nebula's interpretation of how Fred would act and think without a soul, and she writes both Fred and Spike very much in character. The discussions they have are great! Here's a link to the story:
http://www.athenewolfe.com/justrewards/viewstory.php?sid=362
And in a similar vein, kats_meow wrote an alternate reality AtS Season 3 in which an unsouled, grieving Spike is convinced by the Scoobies to leave Sunnydale after Buffy's death (they think he'll be a bad influence on Dawn.) He reluctantly moves into the Hyperion, and the Fang Gang is reluctant to host him...all but Fred, who's just been released from Pylea and is still hiding in her room. Here's a link to that:
http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?keyword=Binding+Ties&user=kats_meow&sortby=des
Kat hasn't had a chance to update it for a couple of years, but the chapters she's posted are excellent!
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I vaguely remember reading Nebula's fic very long ago. It's a great piece and I'd gladly reread it!
I haven't read "Binding Ties" - I rarely read WIPs, because of the frustration of not knowing the ending is too big. But I'll try to read it - your description is intriguing.
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I think it largely depends on the overall theme in season 9. Bringing back Fred sans soul could be very topical if -- very big IF -- Joss plans to subvert traditional mythology of the soul.
It's pure speculation, but we know that Joss loves making Buffy miserable and he loves to surpass himself. To trump the level of angst of season 9, he has to come up with something earth-shattering in season 9. I think there is a distant possibility that in season 9 Buffy will find out that souls are not as crucial as The Council wanted her to believe. That Spike isn't the only soulless creature who could choose the path of good. In that situation, the return of soulless Fred - an innately good person - could be a fascinating twist!
If only Joss could be convinced that his annihilation of Fred is not the greatest, most daring and fabulous thing he's ever done! From what I was told by Mariah at IDW, he never ever wants to bring Fred back because he thinks it would diminish the horrific, painful death he gave her (something that he's very proud of, for some sick reason.) My only hope is that as time passes, he'll become less excited about her bloody death, and more willing to allow her to return to the cast again. There's so much potential for angst if he brings her back -- easily as much angst as there was in killing her! If only there was a way to contact him and suggest this...but he doesn't allow contact, and I doubt that anyone at Dark Horse would be willing to give our messages to him. It's so frustrating.
That said, I shudder in advance, imagining how Joss could torture poor Fred.
At this point I'm so desperate to have her brought back that I'd put up with some torture! At least she'd exist. And where there's life there's a chance for things to eventually get better for her. That's what hurts so much about the comics: as horribly as Buffy and Angel are being portrayed, and as badly as Spike's & Buffy's romance is being ignored, they're THERE. They're present in the story, and readers who love them get to see them. Fans of Fred will never get to see her or read about her again. Her fans have nothing to look forward to. It's such a horrible, left-out feeling. I don't think the IDW staff understands how cruel it is to tell a reader that she can't even have hope. I tried to explain that to Mariah, but she never replied back.
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You know, I can't remember where I read it, but I remember rumors that if AtS weren't cancelled, in season 6 Wesley would've been forced to make a choice between Illyria and Fred. Maybe one of the actors said at a convention, I don't remember. If my memory doesn't play a bad joke on me, it means that Joss had plans for Fred. Why didn't he let IDW writers into his plans - who knows?
The very fact that he kept reminding about her in "After the Fall" - again and again! - is encouraging. Maybe he still has plans for Fred, after all.
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I wish I could believe that Joss may have plans for Fred after all, but the recent interviews about the Season 9 / Angel & Faith comics don't leave much hope for that. There's no mention of Fred in them; only comments about how much Joss loves Illyria.
I feel so badly for the fans of the other dead characters, too; I know they're as hurt and unhappy as I am. But at least their beloved characters still get to exist, if only as ghosts, and some of those characters (Wes and Cordy) have already been allowed to return for visits and will likely be allowed to do so again in future stories. Only Fred has been singled out by Joss, as the one character he's crushed completely out, because he wants to make a cruel, hateful example of her. It's ruined the 'verse for me, and I get horribly depressed at the sight of new comic book interviews and LJ comic book discussions because I already know that Fred won't be a part of them, and that nobody else will want to talk about her. I remember how much fun it used to be to discuss spoilers; how exciting it was to try to guess what would happen in the next episodes. I miss doing that so much, and I won't ever get to experience that joy again. :(
(I'm sorry, Elena; I didn't mean to highjack your journal and weep all over it! Thank you for welcoming me and for putting up with my lamentation. *grateful hug*)
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