OTOH, Jossverse is ultimately about redemption, and it means that eventually Buffy will forgive Angel.
Honestly, I'm not convinced. Forgiving Angel? Sure. But being forever in love with Angel? It's my opinion that Buffy's forever love is largely fantasy (in love with the idea of love) and that she can only forever love Angel because she doesn't know Angel. I think Season 8 was all about putting Angel's darkness front and center to drive it home. I think, beyond making a point to the audience, that it was about making a point to Buffy. She can't tell Angel and Spike apart--well, now she can.
Apocalypses are dime a dozen in Jossverse and Bangel is the signature couple of the franchize.
Apocalypses are a dime a dozen. Murdering Giles happens once. I think the point of "it matters who kills you" is that it matters to Buffy who killed Giles. And this is worse than a curse that keeps you from being together, but allows you to linger. When you can't be with someone because you can't look at them, that's not where sweet forever love fantasy lives.
In #40 he is not the exposition guy he was in #36-37, but a pretty guy in white shirt who patrols Buffy's window, with fire escape playing the role of their traditional backporch.
The white shirt no doubt matches his white socks. Also, I love how he's climbing down to Buffy (not beneath her anymore). He's climbing down from his ship, he doesn't need Rapunzel to let down her hair. And honestly, I think the whole point of "not my house" is that Buffy's not ready to let him inside. That's why she keeps snarking. She's hoping he'll snark back and instead he just keeps being so nice and sincere that she ends up breaking into tears. She's not ready to deal with that.
The biggest problem with any Spuffy development in season 9 is that it's very hard to invent a good torture for them.
Oh, I don't think so. Buffy yearns but is too afraid to reach out, Spike is oblivious to the point that he maybe has some casual affairs. It all sounds incredibly painful to me. Since Faith is going off to help Angel, Spike might be having an affair with another not-Slayer.
He doesn't feel beneath her anymore: he's a local Han Solo while she's in disgrace.
That's the pain right there. She feels beneath him. That's what's keeping them circling each other. Also, I think Buffy's in romantic retreat mode. She likes looking at cute guys, sure, but she's not ready to do anything about it (and I'm half-tempted to wonder if she finds it easier to flirt with the hot gay guys because they're totally nonthreatening).
'why did we ever break up?"
This felt perfect for her to say since he was in the middle of not-so-tactfully relating how the world thinks she's a "useless bint" and then it strikes me as Joss teasing by posing the question of why did they ever break up. It's almost like Whedon's saying they broke up for not good reasons (aka contrived writers reasons, also characters fears and insecurities) and that "why did we break up" is maybe on the table for exploration later on. Or not.
Joss has work to hard to find a radical new way to make our favorite blondes utterly miserable and heartbroken because of their feelings.
Disagree. Season 6 is largely about self-inflicted pain. Hell, I feel like Buffy's forever love with Angel was also a bit about self-inflicted pain. Buffy's insecurities, her character, that's what's gonna drive the tension here.
Re: continued...angeariaJanuary 21 2011, 16:19:58 UTC
Think I covered that with why it was perfectly in character for Buffy to toss that in. :D
Spike's way is truth, but brutal truth. He's essentially slapping her in the face with it. Don't see why she has to enjoy being slapped with the truth, so she snarks back defensively. As people noted, it calls back to "Touched" and Spike not so smoothly saying, "You're insufferable."
[eta] All right if we agree to disagree here? I don't really want to debate about it and I realize my reply was opening that door again.
Re: continued...rebcakeJanuary 21 2011, 16:58:32 UTC
Actually, we might have to agree to agree. I do think it's in character for them both. I just find it less than charming, given all they've been through. (And I'm not happy with people misquoting the scene to make it look like Spike is trying to insult her, when exactly the opposite is happening.) But yeah, it's them.
Re: continued...rebcakeJanuary 21 2011, 17:36:56 UTC
In the thread on Maggie's journal, multiple people repeatedly used the "you're a useless bint" sentence fragment as an example of how Spike was being just as mean/snarky/insulting as Buffy in the scene. I think that's a gross mischaracterization of what he was saying. For the folks who haven't got it memorized:
SPIKE: Look, I know everybody thinks you're a useless bint that ruined everything right now--
BUFFY (interrupting): Why did we ever break up?
SPIKE: --but I know the truth.
Yes, not a smooth opening, but he's saying she's NOT a useless bint in his typical Spike sideways sentence structure. To pull out the "useless bint" fragment as evidence of his "snark" is...well, it's wrong. When Spike snarks, he snarks right out loud.
Re: continued...rebcakeJanuary 21 2011, 18:46:46 UTC
Yeah, it could be that I'm still miffed at being accused of "clutching my pearls" over this very thing on Maggie's thread, and felt a little piled on. Stopping now.
Re: continued...shipperxJanuary 21 2011, 20:42:54 UTC
Although, being someone -- unlike the comics -- that actually remembers the show, I seem to recall that the break-up went along the lines of Buffy saying "I'm using you..."
(But, I kind of think your explanation was what they were shooting for). ;)
Re: continued...moscow_watcherJanuary 21 2011, 18:23:40 UTC
Forgiving Angel? Sure. But being forever in love with Angel? It's my opinion that Buffy's forever love is largely fantasy (in love with the idea of love) and that she can only forever love Angel because she doesn't know Angel. I think Season 8 was all about putting Angel's darkness front and center to drive it home. I think, beyond making a point to the audience, that it was about making a point to Buffy. She can't tell Angel and Spike apart--well, now she can.
Good points. I think Joss has squeezed all the angst he could currently squeeze out of Bangel and he'll leave the couple alone - at least, for a while.
For a long time I thought that Joss intended Bangel as the end-game of the franchize; after the threesome panel I started to doubt it, and now I'm almost sure that either the three of them will die together, fighting the good fight - or, you know, Buffy will end up Willow or Faith.
The white shirt no doubt matches his white socks.
Heeeee! Exactly! :))))
That's why she keeps snarking. She's hoping he'll snark back and instead he just keeps being so nice and sincere that she ends up breaking into tears. She's not ready to deal with that.
Yes, that's my reading of the scene too. Buffy is afraid that Spike may hug her - because hugging may lead to many other things she's not ready for.
Buffy yearns but is too afraid to reach out, Spike is oblivious to the point that he maybe has some casual affairs. It all sounds incredibly painful to me.
The scene on the fire escape is a bit painful, but, to me, it's more funny than angsty. And Joss won't be Joss if he won't try to surpass season 8 angst. So I already assume a crash position.
But I'm not afraid of angst. I love drama. I love season 6.
Since Faith is going off to help Angel, Spike might be having an affair with another not-Slayer.
Maybe. But I expect something more serious. Something tragic. Impossible choices, matters of life and death.
This felt perfect for her to say since he was in the middle of not-so-tactfully relating how the world thinks she's a "useless bint" and then it strikes me as Joss teasing by posing the question of why did they ever break up. It's almost like Whedon's saying they broke up for not good reasons (aka contrived writers reasons, also characters fears and insecurities) and that "why did we break up" is maybe on the table for exploration later on. Or not.
Hmmm, and now I remembered that Jeanty asked Joss to include the flashback about Buffy finding out that Spike is alive, and Joss refused. Apparently he saves it for a special occasion.
Buffy's insecurities, her character, that's what's gonna drive the tension here.
You may be right. After all, the majority of Willow's arcs were built around her insecurities. But, usually, Buffy's arcs are epic - and a character's insecurity isn't a plot device that could produce an epic story.
Honestly, I'm not convinced. Forgiving Angel? Sure. But being forever in love with Angel? It's my opinion that Buffy's forever love is largely fantasy (in love with the idea of love) and that she can only forever love Angel because she doesn't know Angel. I think Season 8 was all about putting Angel's darkness front and center to drive it home. I think, beyond making a point to the audience, that it was about making a point to Buffy. She can't tell Angel and Spike apart--well, now she can.
Apocalypses are dime a dozen in Jossverse and Bangel is the signature couple of the franchize.
Apocalypses are a dime a dozen. Murdering Giles happens once. I think the point of "it matters who kills you" is that it matters to Buffy who killed Giles. And this is worse than a curse that keeps you from being together, but allows you to linger. When you can't be with someone because you can't look at them, that's not where sweet forever love fantasy lives.
In #40 he is not the exposition guy he was in #36-37, but a pretty guy in white shirt who patrols Buffy's window, with fire escape playing the role of their traditional backporch.
The white shirt no doubt matches his white socks. Also, I love how he's climbing down to Buffy (not beneath her anymore). He's climbing down from his ship, he doesn't need Rapunzel to let down her hair. And honestly, I think the whole point of "not my house" is that Buffy's not ready to let him inside. That's why she keeps snarking. She's hoping he'll snark back and instead he just keeps being so nice and sincere that she ends up breaking into tears. She's not ready to deal with that.
The biggest problem with any Spuffy development in season 9 is that it's very hard to invent a good torture for them.
Oh, I don't think so. Buffy yearns but is too afraid to reach out, Spike is oblivious to the point that he maybe has some casual affairs. It all sounds incredibly painful to me. Since Faith is going off to help Angel, Spike might be having an affair with another not-Slayer.
He doesn't feel beneath her anymore: he's a local Han Solo while she's in disgrace.
That's the pain right there. She feels beneath him. That's what's keeping them circling each other. Also, I think Buffy's in romantic retreat mode. She likes looking at cute guys, sure, but she's not ready to do anything about it (and I'm half-tempted to wonder if she finds it easier to flirt with the hot gay guys because they're totally nonthreatening).
'why did we ever break up?"
This felt perfect for her to say since he was in the middle of not-so-tactfully relating how the world thinks she's a "useless bint" and then it strikes me as Joss teasing by posing the question of why did they ever break up. It's almost like Whedon's saying they broke up for not good reasons (aka contrived writers reasons, also characters fears and insecurities) and that "why did we break up" is maybe on the table for exploration later on. Or not.
Joss has work to hard to find a radical new way to make our favorite blondes utterly miserable and heartbroken because of their feelings.
Disagree. Season 6 is largely about self-inflicted pain. Hell, I feel like Buffy's forever love with Angel was also a bit about self-inflicted pain. Buffy's insecurities, her character, that's what's gonna drive the tension here.
Great review, Elena! Very thought provoking!
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Or it could be a teasing way to imply the answer to the question: "Oh, right. You're an asshole."
Cute.
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Spike's way is truth, but brutal truth. He's essentially slapping her in the face with it. Don't see why she has to enjoy being slapped with the truth, so she snarks back defensively. As people noted, it calls back to "Touched" and Spike not so smoothly saying, "You're insufferable."
[eta] All right if we agree to disagree here? I don't really want to debate about it and I realize my reply was opening that door again.
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I think you're misreading my intentions there. Which ironically doesn't make me very happy...
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SPIKE: Look, I know everybody thinks you're a useless bint that ruined everything right now--
BUFFY (interrupting): Why did we ever break up?
SPIKE: --but I know the truth.
Yes, not a smooth opening, but he's saying she's NOT a useless bint in his typical Spike sideways sentence structure. To pull out the "useless bint" fragment as evidence of his "snark" is...well, it's wrong. When Spike snarks, he snarks right out loud.
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*icon solidarity*
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:P
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(But, I kind of think your explanation was what they were shooting for). ;)
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Good points. I think Joss has squeezed all the angst he could currently squeeze out of Bangel and he'll leave the couple alone - at least, for a while.
For a long time I thought that Joss intended Bangel as the end-game of the franchize; after the threesome panel I started to doubt it, and now I'm almost sure that either the three of them will die together, fighting the good fight - or, you know, Buffy will end up Willow or Faith.
The white shirt no doubt matches his white socks.
Heeeee! Exactly! :))))
That's why she keeps snarking. She's hoping he'll snark back and instead he just keeps being so nice and sincere that she ends up breaking into tears. She's not ready to deal with that.
Yes, that's my reading of the scene too. Buffy is afraid that Spike may hug her - because hugging may lead to many other things she's not ready for.
Buffy yearns but is too afraid to reach out, Spike is oblivious to the point that he maybe has some casual affairs. It all sounds incredibly painful to me.
The scene on the fire escape is a bit painful, but, to me, it's more funny than angsty. And Joss won't be Joss if he won't try to surpass season 8 angst. So I already assume a crash position.
But I'm not afraid of angst. I love drama. I love season 6.
Since Faith is going off to help Angel, Spike might be having an affair with another not-Slayer.
Maybe. But I expect something more serious. Something tragic. Impossible choices, matters of life and death.
This felt perfect for her to say since he was in the middle of not-so-tactfully relating how the world thinks she's a "useless bint" and then it strikes me as Joss teasing by posing the question of why did they ever break up. It's almost like Whedon's saying they broke up for not good reasons (aka contrived writers reasons, also characters fears and insecurities) and that "why did we break up" is maybe on the table for exploration later on. Or not.
Hmmm, and now I remembered that Jeanty asked Joss to include the flashback about Buffy finding out that Spike is alive, and Joss refused. Apparently he saves it for a special occasion.
Buffy's insecurities, her character, that's what's gonna drive the tension here.
You may be right. After all, the majority of Willow's arcs were built around her insecurities. But, usually, Buffy's arcs are epic - and a character's insecurity isn't a plot device that could produce an epic story.
Great review, Elena! Very thought provoking!
Thank you!
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