Angel. The Fall

[moscow_watcher]

The main complaints against Angel's arc I saw online boil down to two claims: a) Angel is out of character and b) to service Buffy's journey, Angel is destroyed.

Judging by Jeanty's Q&As, Angel's arc in season 8 is over. He won't be in #40. It's time to sum up his story. What the hell has happened to him?

Comments

[shipperx]

So, pre-season 8, Angel comes back to our times from the post-apocalyptic future. He saw the things to come and he knows that the Earth is doomed all the people he cares about will die.

Would have been nice had the execution not sucked so badly that anyone could have figured this out without fanwanking a single line of isolated text in an after-thought one-shot issue that hadn't been planned for the series and only came about after the readers did a collective "wha-huh?"

Only de-powerment can lead to further empowerment

And only two no's can make a yes?

No wonder this plot makes virtually no sense.

Personally I've liked the morphing of how Twilight had to do bad stuff to bring Buffy 'low'... only then to be retconned that Angel didn't do any bad stuff. To Angel was working toward bringing about Twilight... but he had no idea how or what was involved or what Twilight actually was. Exactly when did anyone inform him that space-frakking was involved? No one? It was just his getting horny when confronted with 206 dead slayers and a Buffy? So, where do we stand now? Apparently, Twangel knew nothing and did nothing. And anything he might have done, he's not responsible for.

This works as a character how again?

he definitely doesn't know that the fallout is the death of the old world.
So why wasn't he more willing to help when it turned out to be? He wanted to stay put and tried to convince Buffy that everything -- including the world ending -- was just fine.

And Angel's actions *did* contribute to avoiding the apocalypse

I don't think apocalypse means what Jeanty thinks it means.

And this? I categorize as Jeanty reaching. It's trying to prove a negative "Well maybe it would've been worse"... Well, maybe it wouldn't have been. All we know for certain is that what he did do was cataclysmic.

Twilight chooses Roden and Gigi
But wasn't it Buffy/Angel because they were the most specialist Slayer and Vampire ever? Or was this just Twilight ego-stroking?

It's interesting that the events in №34-38 created the impression that the Earth was destroyed. Yet in #39 we find out that the Earth is mostly okay.
Interesting in that it's yet another way the comics are illogical and/or sloppy and/or failing to explain what the frak is going on.

So, if Whistler knew about the outcome, why didn't he just say, "Hey, Angel, you know there is a seed in Sunnydale, tell Buffy to grab her scythe and go and break it,

Because what's the fun in making sense when you can have an idiot plot that involves space-frakking [/snark]

I don't think so. There are many people - clever people! - who acted that way in real life.
Name 2 that have been written as this big of idiots that weren't in a farce. I mean, I get what they're trying to aim for. Something like District 13 in The Hunger Games trilogy, but... they did not accomplish this feat in Season 8. All they did was make Angel look like a brainless idiot and fool. If they didn't want to make him (and Buffy by extension)look stupid they would have worked harder at making the story that B/A fell for make any sense. It didn't. Even on the surface it sounded stupid and illogical. Things needed to have made sense on some level so as to reasonably 'fool' them. Instead, it was a stupid chocolate coating to help them swallow the equally stupid nuggety center.

So far, Angel was on Greenwalt's redemptive journey, where redemption meant sexy brooding in leather pants.
Angel only wore leather pants when he was evil. Hence the leather pants of evil. Second, his 'easy' redemption involved the deaths of darn near everyone he cared about or loved. I don't know that Joss -- or a Whedonless Dark Horse, which is what they will be -- has a hope in hell of topping that. Given the quality of the comics thus far, good luck, *cough*ain't--gonna-happen*cough*. I'm not holding my breath. They broke it, and if they try to superglue it together now, it's still going to show all the cracks.

* Sorry if I'm overly snarky, but Season 8 makes my head hurt.

[moscow_watcher]

And only two no's can make a yes? I'm still boggling over depowering Buffy helps her...except, wait, weren't they powering up to be superbeings? So not really depowering. Just kinda-sorta-on-the-way-to-nonsensical-superpowers.

I think the premise works as a metaphor of the situation when a person has nothing to lose. He suddenly can do anything without bothering about consequences.

So why wasn't he surprised or more upset or more willing to help when it turned out to be? Instead he tried to convince Buffy that everything -- including the world ending -- was just fine.

I attribute it the the glow influence. *shrugs* Then again, Stormwreath up-thread thinks it's a normal human reaction. Maybe it's denial. Maybe. I don't know. It's the part that grates me the most.

And this? I categorize as Jeanty officially reaching. There's absolutely nothing to support that. It's trying to prove a negative "Well maybe it would've been worse"... Well, maybe it wouldn't have been! All we know for certain is that what he did do was catastrophic.

I don't know if Jeanty thinks this way, too. It was my own reflection on the matter. I even don't know if we're supposed to ask these questions. Maybe my vision is distorted by reading too much opinions.

But wasn't it Buffy/Angel because they were the most specialist Slayer and Vampire ever? Or was this just Twilight ego-stroking?

I think it was ego-stroking.

Name 2 that have been written as this big of idiots that weren't in a farce.

I meant real-life revolutionaries - but if we switch to comics, what about Ozymandias in "Watchmen"? Also, Promethea who makes the world better through revelation but she also changes the world rather than just defending it.

* Sorry if I'm overly snarky, but Season 8 makes my head hurt.*

That's okay, snark as much as you like. We snark therefore we live. :)

[elisi]

I think the premise works as a metaphor of the situation when a person has nothing to lose. He suddenly can do anything without bothering about consequences.
Last comment, honest, but this just fitted in too perfectly with this particular piece of dialogue (since I'm all about Jack today...)

IANTO: I've nothing left to lose.

JACK: There's always something left to lose.

Listen to Jack, he speaks the truth.



(I meant real-life revolutionaries - but if we switch to comics, what about Ozymandias in "Watchmen"?
Ozymandias was a stone cold brilliant *genius*, who planned and executed his own plan with great success and knew *exactly* what he was doing. That's why he's so scary.)

[moscow_watcher]

Last comment, honest, but this just fitted in too perfectly with this particular piece of dialogue (since I'm all about Jack today...)

You're very welcome here, honey! Especially with more Jack gifs. :)))

(Seriously I stare at them and I'm like "season 8? what season 8?")

IANTO: I've nothing left to lose.
JACK: There's always something left to lose.

Listen to Jack, he speaks the truth.

The nameless slayer in "Chain" - did she have anything to lose?

Ozymandias was a stone cold brilliant *genius*, who planned and executed his own plan with great success and knew *exactly* what he was doing. That's why he's so scary.)

Ozymandias succeeded at horrible price. Angel thought he could succeed too.

[elisi]

You're very welcome here, honey! Especially with more Jack gifs. :))) (Seriously I stare at them and I'm like "season 8? what season 8?")
Really? Well in that case I shall bring you John Barrowman dancing in spotty underpants! :)



The nameless slayer in "Chain" - did she have anything to lose?
Her life, for a start. Really, she struck me as someone who deliberately chose the mission, understanding what she had to lose, but deciding that the sacrifice was worth it.

Ozymandias succeeded at horrible price. Angel thought he could succeed too.
Ozymandias wanted to be God. Angel was a puppet. They're as far apart as can possibly be.

[moscow_watcher]

Well in that case I shall bring you John Barrowman dancing in spotty underpants! :)

You. Are. Evil.

Instead of writing long words with obscure meaning I just sit and stare....

Really, she struck me as someone who deliberately chose the mission, understanding what she had to lose, but deciding that the sacrifice was worth it.

That's exactly what Angel did. Or, at least he thought he did.

Were those elves and slimy slugs's lives in the underworld less precious than the human lives Angel has sacrificed?

[elisi]

You. Are. Evil. Instead of writing long words with obscure meaning I just sit and stare....
*grins*

That's exactly what Angel did. Or, at least he thought he did.
No it isn't. (Not debating this, sorry.)

[shipperx]

Ozymandias was a megalomaniac. But we're told that Angel is in fact a 'hero'... or a puppet. Either way, there's a lack of acknowledgement of how monstrous the decision to do this (if he made a decision at all) actually was. And if he was a puppet all along, then it's not really a character arc. It's Angel as marionette.

[moscow_watcher]

But we're told that Angel is in fact a 'hero'...

We all know Joss' attitude to unadulterated heroes.

Yes, Captain Hammer's here, hair blowing in the breeze!
The day needs my saving expertise!

[shipperx]

We all know Joss' attitude to unadulterated heroes.

Doesn't matter what Joss' attitude is when 'hero' is what he markets the character as and when he throws in reasons why though he makes them do very unheroic things, they aren't actually responsible for their actions. Or they did good stuff off screen you didn't know about and ran counter to their stated goals so they aren't really wrong.

That's having your cake and wanting to eat it too.

[moscow_watcher]

Doesn't matter what Joss' attitude is when 'hero' is what he markets the character as

Joss didn't market Angel. The marketing department at TheWB did. Joss saw AtS as a much darker show from the very beginning. He couldn't commit to his vision on TV. He does it now.

when he throws in reasons why though he makes them do very unheroic things, they aren't actually responsible for their actions.

I've got the impression that Angel will be kept responsible for his actions. If it won't happen I will be very disappointed.

We'll see.

That's having your cake and wanting to eat it too.

Agree. But that's Joss traditional modus operandi. Angelus arc. Spike's and Anya's integration into the main cast.

[elisi]

Joss saw AtS as a much darker show from the very beginning. He couldn't commit to his vision on TV. He does it now.
Very last comment, I swear. I don't see this as dark. Torchwood is dark. This isn't.

[moscow_watcher]

*hugs* Okay, let's just agree to disagree.

And - thank you again for so much Jack goodness :)

[elisi]

Actually, and this is kinda going off on a tangent, but have you seen 'Being Human'? I mention it, because I think it in many ways conforms to what I think Joss' original vision for AtS was (something about Angel licking victim's blood off the pavement?) since they push the 'vampire = addict' metaphor very clearly on that show. S2 especially is a textbook case for 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' and goes black as sin. (The finale didn't quite live up to the rest of the season, IMHO, but if you want a dark vampire story, that's the place to go.)

Or maybe we just have different definitions of 'dark' which would account for the difficulty of understanding each other. :)

[moscow_watcher]

No, I havent - but I think I recognize the guy on your icon. Sueworld has a "Being Human" banner at one of the Buffy comics forums, and I often see these faces.
I think I should try to watch it. I heard a lot of praise online and I'm curious about that series.

[shipperx]

Mitchell! Yes. When I saw Mitchell fall off the wagon and kill all those people, I thought "Joss Whedon would never have the balls for this!" (I believe Rahirah wrote such a response when she saw the episode). There's no 'out' for Mitchell. He's an addict who behaved as an addict. Full stop (and gloriously well done as we saw him rationalize his slide down the slippery slope of good intentions and self-deceiving rationalization). No soulless curse, no Twilight green glow. This was Mitchell. Mitchell did this. It was all him. Now, deal. Joss never has the balls to actually do that. He always makes up some garbage about curses and green glows, then pats his own back about how 'brave' he is.