Angel. The Fall
The main complaints against Angel's arc I saw online boil down to two claims: a) Angel is out of character and b) to service Buffy's journey, Angel is destroyed.
Judging by Jeanty's Q&As, Angel's arc in season 8 is over. He won't be in #40. It's time to sum up his story. What the hell has happened to him?
( Angel, Joss way )
Judging by Jeanty's Q&As, Angel's arc in season 8 is over. He won't be in #40. It's time to sum up his story. What the hell has happened to him?
( Angel, Joss way )
"So, if Whistler knew about the outcome, why didn't he just say, "Hey, Angel, you know there is a seed in Sunnydale, tell Buffy to grab her scythe and go and break it"
If breaking the Seed cuts off Earth from all the other dimensions, presumably that means the Powers That Be wouldn't be able to reach or influence Earth either. So in their opinion, breaking it would be a defeat for them; the last thing they'd want their champions to do.
Has anyone asked Scott or Jane if that was 'really' Whistler, or instead Twilight in disguise? I can see it both ways. Either he was lying to Angel to persuade him to go along with the plan - or he really was from the PtB, and they were scrambling to make the best of a bad situation by subtle manipulation. Like you say, Angel and Buffy were much better candidates for divine power than Gigi and Roden would have been. If the Powers thought that the Twilight prophecy was inevitable, then the best they could hope for would be to manoeuvre their own candidate into the top spot.
So far, the biggest issue for me, besides space-frak, is the assertion that Angel could try to keep Buffy to himself in their artificial paradise, knowing - seeing! - that her friends are in mortal danger and are fighting for their lives back on Earth.
It seemed like a very believable and human reaction to me.
Angel had grave doubts about this plan at first; but he was persuaded to go along with it, and managed to convince himself he was doing the right thing. For a year or more, he had to stand by as people did horrible things in his name, sustaining himself by the belief that it was all in a good cause, that the end result would justify their deaths and make it all worthwhile. So when he saw Willow and the others locked in battle, to him it was just more of the same. He'd already hardened himself to not intervene - and if he let himself feel pity and sympathy for them and go to their aid, that would call into question why he didn't do that for all the Slayers killed by his agents. Rather than admit he was wrong all that time, he retreats into denial, repeating the mantra that the end result will make it all worthwhile.
But please remember, his moment of denial lasts only for a few minutes. I don't know if anybody but Buffy could have set him straight so quickly, but she does; and after that he's trying to make amends for his mistake in classic Angel fashion. Which is problematic in itself, but that's a separate issue. :-)
Also, remember that Angel is immortal, and his preferred mode is to sit in a dark room and brood. Watching ephemeral short-lived humans dying is something he's had to get used to. He can be pushed into intervening by other people - Whistler, Buffy, Doyle, Cordelia - but it's not his natural response. In that, he's the opposite of Buffy.
All revolutions in Russia were made by clever people who thought they could make the world better.
I'm wondering if some point in 1919 or so, Lenin looked at the state of Russia - starving people in the cities, peasants in revolt, pogroms and massacres everywhere - and like Angel, wondered if he should carry on trying to build his perfect world on the ruins of the old one, or just give up his power and go to help his wife's family and friends get through the troubles. :)
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Thank you!
If breaking the Seed cuts off Earth from all the other dimensions, presumably that means the Powers That Be wouldn't be able to reach or influence Earth either. So in their opinion, breaking it would be a defeat for them; the last thing they'd want their champions to do.
Then again, not breaking it is even the bigger defeat, because Earth dies and there will be nothing to reach and influence. (I tried to build a logical explanation of PtB's position to argue Leyki's point, but it became too complicated so I focused on Willow's possible reaction. She is very strong - she could turn Angel into a frog, despite all his God-like powers. So she could be a crucial factor here.
Has anyone asked Scott or Jane if that was 'really' Whistler, or instead Twilight in disguise?
I read all their interviews I see online, but, AFAIK, nobody asked them. My hands are itching to go to Jane's blog and ask directly. The only thing that stops me is the thought that maybe it will be the crucial plot point of Angel's arc in season 9.
It seemed like a very believable and human reaction to me.
When you explain it very eloquently, it works for me on the cerebral level. But, viscerally, something inside me resists these panels.
I'm wondering if some point in 1919 or so, Lenin looked at the state of Russia - starving people in the cities, peasants in revolt, pogroms and massacres everywhere - and like Angel, wondered if he should carry on trying to build his perfect world on the ruins of the old one, or just give up his power and go to help his wife's family and friends get through the troubles. :)
YES. THIS. Bolsheviks in Russia, Jakobins in France, they all sincerely believed they were building a better world.
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Except, unlike the motivations for those incidents, this was not and never was about suffering general populace. People were starving and oppressed there. This was about a handful of superbeings who were amassing military weaponry in the modern world.
If you go back to the French or Russian revolution, both of whom did indeed spin out of control, they started from a not-insane premise. The de-evolution evolved over time as they lost sight of their goals. Twilight's goal were completely hinky and poorly supported to begin with. Had they wanted us to find them at all rational, then it was on the comics to lay the groundwork to make them rational. They never did. The height of their 'explanation' was a talking dog discussing prophecies. This is not something that's particularly believable nor a good set-up for character motivation. It's a talking dog and a prophecy in a fictional universe where darn near every prophecy that had been written had been subverted in some way so there's no reason why any character -- even Angel -- should buy it hook line and sinker.
Revolutions can go awry. In fact they usually do. This wasn't a revolution. It wasn't even about the world. It was, apparently, about a handful of privileged folks with superpowers who frak the world. There's a difference. The world wasn't in danger until these characters endangered it.
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I assume you're talking about the goals that Angel and his human supporters thought they were fighting for here, rather than the deeper hidden plan of Twilight-the-Universe that Angel didn't know about?
"And now there's this prophecy, the biggest one the Powers have ever seen, so that's messing with the math, killing off timelines. Anyway, I've seen some of the futures. In some of them, right exactly at this point, you tell her what's going on. You work as a team, fight side by side. You lose the war side by side. Very romantic."
Angel thought he was saving the world (and building a better one). His followers thought they were defending humanity against evil magical and demonic powers. I don't see what's so hinky about that...
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I'm talking about Angel having a plan that the best way to deal with a problem like the Slayers was to make people hate them and to go to war with them. It makes sense if, like Voll, you actually think they're evil, but if your plan is to protect them (while you're destroying them to bring about Twilight...which... are kind of contradictory goals, but whatever) that creating seething masses of people hating the slayers is to unleash an untamable force against the folks your trying to protect.
I wrote a pretty big meta about how revolutions turn on themselves as part of my meta for the Hunger Games Trilogy : (link: http://shipperx.livejournal.com/577418.html it's in the part about Book III - Mockingjay) so I'm not unaware of the concept that this was supposedly aiming for. I'm just saying if this was what they were trying to express, they did not express it at all well. Robspierre, Marat, and Lenin believed their causes and there was actually reason to believe in their causes because of real-world events around them. People were starving, that's impetus. The issue with Twilight is... the world was in no immediate danger. Buffy was in danger, but she wasn't the world. And there could have been better ways to help Buffy than... lying and manipulating her.
The world only became endangered through bringing about Twilight. The seed had been here all along. Twilight only came into effect because Angel was stupid enough to buy its flimsey excuses. The only endangering was his being egotistical and dimwitted enough to buy this plan. And the plan, on the face of it, sounded stupid. Robspierre was fighting the injustice of a starving populace then at some point he decided he was a bloody dictator. But there actually were not-insane reasons to start the fight. The only inspirartion for Angel's actions (that we are shown) is his being fed a load of illogical twaddle by a talking dog.
Not really the same thing.
Anyway, I've seen some of the futures. In some of them, right exactly at this point...
So, um... who's showing him this? Twilight? The dog? And what PTB are we talking about, the silver twins that got it and weren't particularly impressive? The Partners? Does Angel even KNOW? We the readers sure as hell don't.
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This seems to be the biggest disconnect, because as far as I can see, Angel wasn't responsible for that at all. People hated Slayers because a self-selected group of superhuman killers who blow up Californian towns, steal guns from armouries, etc, would make anybody nervous. Humanity came up with reasons to hate and fear Slayers all by itself.
Sure, in the early part of the season Buffy found it easier to blame Twilight for all her problems than to accept that people might have a problem with her Slayer Army themselves. But Angel was trying to keep a lid on the anti-Slayer hysteria by diverting and delaying it - not whipping up the frenzy himself.
The seed had been here all along. Twilight only came into effect because Angel was stupid enough to buy its flimsey excuses.
Perhaps so - but if it hadn't been Angel, it might have been someone else. Like Roden, for example - do you think he would have abandoned his brave new universe to follow Gigi back to Earth to help her friends? From all the exposition we were given, it was clear that this prophecy has been in play for a very long time; and it was looking for suitable candidates to meet its requirements. If not Buffy and Angel, then someone else; if not now this very minute, then pretty soon. The world is cyclical, and it's on a timer that's running down.
So, um... who's showing him this?
Whistler, the emissary of the Powers who dragged Angel out of his filthy, rat-eating back-alley misery and set him on the path to becoming a Champion and earning redemption. The Powers who guided him through Doyle's and Cordelia's visions. Those Powers.
Also, it might be worth remembering that Angel's reaction to the talking dog was to turn his back and walk away. It took a lot more to convince him than that.
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We have no way of knowing that. That's another problem with the execution. We don't have a dependable timeline that actually relates to anything.
We were only shown Angel's decision to become Twilight in flashback and do not know when it was flashing back to. When the comics had started, the Slayers were already at war and there was already a mystery person involved. Which came first the chicken or the egg... we don't actually know.
Whistler, the emissary of the Powers who dragged Angel out of his filthy, rat-eating back-alley misery and set him on the path to becoming a Champion and earning redemption
Or Whistler, the guy who introduced him to the one girl in all the world that would cause him to lose his soul and try to resurrect Acathla. And is it even really Whistler? I've seen speculation that it may well have been Twi-Whistler. So again, we're back to not really knowing who or what to believ. We don't know what timelines Angel was shown or whether he's being told these things by an unreliable narrator. We don't even know whether really real Whistler should be believed, but we don't even know for certain whether it's even really-real Whistler.
So much of Season 8 depends on the readers fanwanking it six ways to Sunday to make it make sense... which is why we have so many and so many disparate interpretations of it.
If not Buffy and Angel, then someone else; if not now this very minute, then pretty soon. The world is cyclical, and it's on a timer that's running down.
"Soon" is rather relative, especially since we're talking a seed which predates earth. Are we talking geological time? Because if the choice is the earth ending now or a million years from now, I'd think most people would choose a million years in the future. Hell, most people areound now would choose a hundred and fifty years from now. Heck, I'd go as far as to say for most people if the choice is between now and next week, they'd choose next week. The fact is only Angel choosing to go along with it made it now. Given the longevity of the seed and the Powers and how long Twilight has been waiting, we could have been talking a thousand years in the future when we're all trogladytes by then. And we might be destroyed by the asteroid Apophis in 2036, but I don't think many people would opt to trigger the apocalypse today because of it.
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We know that because in the very first issue of the very first comic we hear the all too human General Voll getting his rant on about Slayer terrorists not jibing with American interests following a charismatic leader who reduced her home town into a crater. He's being listened to respectfully (ie as if he's talking sense) by people who are not part of the Twilight organisation. We know it because the same representative of humanity explains how Slayers are possessed by a demonic force that will ultimately lead to them wanting to remake the world in their image. We also know it because Willow points out to Buffy that the bank job will have made her enemies amongst the rich and powerful who see her as a threat to their possessions. In that context when Angel confirms it to be the case in #33 the least fanwanky interpretation is to accept that he's telling the truth about the government's role in all this.
The issue with Twilight is... the world was in no immediate danger.
As far as Angel knew it was. In #36, wherever he's come from he expects (at the very least) LA to be in darkness and ruins. Whatever the talking animals are really up to, something delivered on giving him a second chance to prevent whatever put out the lights of his city from happening.
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And is it even really Whistler?
Seriously, does it matter at this point? Angel thought it was Whistler. Whether Whistler was the emissary of the Powers That Be or of Twilight, he was still a supernatural force here to persuade Angel to follow his plan in order to save the world (or make it into a better one.) The big contrast of S8 is the supernatural versus humanity.
Hell, most people around now would choose a hundred and fifty years from now.
Most people probably would, yes. Buffy, for instance. However, as I remarked above, Angel is immortal. He's not getting any older. Why should we expect him to see these things the exact same way as us?
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I don't read aycheb's posts any longer. I told her as much last week when I decided that was the course that I would follow, and I told her why in the confersation that convinced me to do that. But that was in someone else's journal and I have no reason to bring it to Moscow's.
As to the comics, I get that you guys like them and in the many interpretations of stuff that have come out of the comics, you guys have one that work for you and that satisfies you. I'm glad someone enjoys the comics. Someone should.
I, however, note the fact that I can go around LJ and a few forums like Buffy Forums and find a whole host of other theories and interpretations with people who sincerely believe that they have them figured out also (while noting that almost everyone's theories have a tendency to morph from one issue to the next with entirely different fanwanks given the month, the state of the comics, and, at times, I suspect the phase of the moon). All of these people believe their interpretation just as much as you guys [and I can read the Q&A's with Allie and Jeanty contradicting one another and contradicting themselves on any number of points from one Q&A to the next]. All of this indicates that, while there may be an interpretation that works for you guys, there are a lot of interpretations, most of which don't align with one another and many of which depend on entirely different readings of the exact same text. This indicates to me that there's enough wiggle room and gaps to allow for all manner of things. That's the issue. It clearly says very, very little. The fact is most of the theories floating around the fandom do not jive with one another and are primarily constructed around the need to protect someone's sacred ox from being gored. So "Whedon is God" folks come up with fanwanks that make this good writing no matter what is going on. 'Buffy is my girl' folks come up with how somehow she's not been written very poorly throughout this mess. Bangels wank how this actually isn't hideously ugly for their ship. Some 'Buffy is my girl' folks find themselves wanking Angel by extension in order to protect their girl. Spuffies try to find a way to salvage that ship out of the negative space and subtext. Xander fans are bitching about how it 'clearly' set him up for something BIG and macho while Bander's insist that the space-boink didn't destroy their ship because she didn't somehow flip from being 'in love' with Xander to the throwing herself into Angel's arms as soon as she glimpsed his face. Few of these many interpretations make a great deal of sense and most cannot in any way jive with one another. So we're dealing with a comic that --given the vast number of interpretations out there-- are clear as mud. [Yes, people can read multiple interpretations into stuff, but when the vast majority of them agree on virtually nothing, something is seriously off in the writing.] So everyone seems to be reading whatever it is that best preserves whatever their point of view happens to be... and they all find support for it in the endless ambiguity of this 'text.'
Personally, I think it's treated characters like mindless caricatures, taken one aspect of characters and then blew them up to near ludicrous levels so as to have them do stuff because the plotting makes it so... even though the plot is clunky, meandering, and often illogical. If I examine it very much there are enough contradictions that in order for it to work I have to give it every possible benefit of a doubt, take a whole hell of a lot of stuff that I'm told at face value (even if it makes no sense) and default to the absolute most generous fanwank possible. Every time. Even if these elements don't sync together very well.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see why I should have to work that hard or why I have to give them that much of a benefit of a doubt.
I realize that mileage does vary.
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I don't have a fixed theory about how it all works; untl the season is over, how can I? But it doesn't stop me speculating and theorising, and even changing my mind as new information comes in or other people suggest different readings of things. And I read the comics because I enjoy them, not because someone makes me do it. :-)
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Nah. Nothing hinky in saying that Angel was doing what he thought would replace the world with a different world but that he didn't actually expect there to be harm to the world being replaced. Maybe. Meanwhile in Q&As say that he didn't know what he had to do to cause it to happen, that he didn't know what would happen if Twilight came about, and of course he wasn't particularly moved to do much when he did see it happening until Buffy said she'd leave him there. That's on top of their also saying that Angel was actually covertly working at helping the slayers, though we aren't shown these covert attempts, despite the fact that such actions would be in direct opposition to his stated goal of 'bringing Buffy low' so as to create the Twilight... that he apparently didn't know what it was exactly. But he made it less bad from the alternative we didn't see by his actions... that we didn't see.
All of which distills into: he didn't know what he was doing, but in order to make 'something' happen (he was kind of vague on what that might be, only that it was better than the unprovable alternative) he had to do something (but he was a bit vague on what that might be also). But that's okay. He wasn't acting on his own free will any way. Well he was. Some. We think. But we're not sure exactly how much. Only that it wasn't enough to cause consent issues. But we're really extra doubly sure he wasn't when he did the really, really bad stuff. And probably some of the other stuff. And he was helping when we couldn't see him.
And of course, this also involved having a whole slew of followers helping him out even though they didn't know who he was, what his plan was, and despite that it would result in "Twilight" that would destroy these followers world, and presumably the followers in it. Except he didn't know that. And neither did they.
Nothing hinky there.
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Angel was actually covertly working at helping the slayers, though we aren't shown these covert attempts
Well, we are; but it's subtle because they were going for the deliberate mislead. But the most obvious example is this one from 'A Beautiful Sunset':
MINION: You didn't kill her.
ANGEL: That's been done. To little effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armour... her moral certainty.
Remember, General Voll wanted to nuke her castle in the very first arc of the season. Angel talking about elaborate long-term plans to "undermine Buffy's moral certainty" instead of just killing her was how he was helping. "I put on a mask, talk about 'master plans'...distract them."
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Alternative 1: The Seed is successfully defended. The Powers continue to influence Earth. Victory for them.
Alternative 2: Twilight captures the Seed and takes it to the new universe. The Earth is destroyed. However, the Powers can presumably move into the new Universe and start influencing that one - why wouldn't they? They lose the battle, but not the war.
Alternative 3: The Seed is broken. Compete defeat for the Powers.
viscerally, something inside me resists these panels.
Well, I think we're definitely supposed to object to Angel's attitude, and to believe he's in the wrong. The trouble is, a lot of people seem to be reacting as "Oh, Angel would never do that!" while I'm thinking "Yeah, he probably would - I'm pretty sure I would too in his place - but he gets over his first reaction.
Actually, that seems to be a common theme of a lot of criticism of s8. Characters in the story keep on reacting to things in the heat of the moment, driven along by their hopes and fears and passions. Fans sit back in their chairs stroking their chins, and analyse the characters' behaviour dispassionately in the light of full knowledge - and are disappointed that they don't always do the rational, logical thing that seems so obvious from a distance. :-)
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Actually, what I'm saying is that if Angel did that on such incredibly unconvincing and illogical evidence, he's a moron.
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Impossible. Gigi and Roden are Gods. Their powers are unlimited.
Alternative 2: Twilight captures the Seed and takes it to the new universe. The Earth is destroyed. However, the Powers can presumably move into the new Universe and start influencing that one - why wouldn't they? They lose the battle, but not the war.
If they can influence any reality, why bother about one replacing another? Pure nostalgia? Old connections? :)
Alternative 3: The Seed is broken. Compete defeat for the Powers.
Actualy, it will be interesting to see if PtB will stay. It was an awfully convenient writer's crutch, hard to replace. :)
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