My take is that Joss deconstructs the Angel he isn't interested in to build the Angel he wants to explore. Angel the mission's boyfriend is no more. Angel the flawed, tragic, existential hero has risen.
O_o
Angel of AtS was a flawed, tragic, existential hero. That's the one Joss doesn't seem to understand. Joss forced the character back into the role of mission's boyfriend-cum-villain (and Buffy back into the role of Angel's girlfriend-cum-victim) for the comics.
Angel of AtS was a flawed, tragic, existential hero. That's what I was going to say... Twangel is just a moron. (I have a lovely plot bunny for your ficathon btw. Probably quite short, but nice and plump. *g*) Anyway, it confirms my impression that none of the writers have ever seen AtS.
"Angel of AtS was a flawed, tragic, existential hero. That's the one Joss doesn't seem to understand. Joss forced the character back into the role of mission's boyfriend-cum-villain (and Buffy back into the role of Angel's girlfriend-cum-victim) for the comics."
I agree., If nothing else these poorly written comics serve to bang home just how much Whedon has forgotten about his character and his emotional journey in AtS and how readilly he is to regress him just to fit his being nothing more then a cipher for Buffy's storyline.
Well If he's expecting that result from that storyline, well imo he's failed. It's more a case of 'trying to have your cake and eating it' with this possession plot.
While the writers have waffled quite a lot over the years about the degree to which a souled and an unsouled vampire are really the same person, Angel was always moping about his responsibility for Angelus's actions. I can quote you reams of episode dialogue about it if you like. At one point he was ready to kill himself over Angelus's sins.
As it's quite possible to read this story as Angel being under Twilight's mental control, this makes him even LESS culpable for his actions this time around. It's far more like Spike being controlled by the First - do you think Spike's responsible for the people he killed then? If Spike gets a pass for being controlled by the first, why shouldn't Angel get a pass for being controlled by Twilight?
And if Angel is not controlled by Twilight, then he's just a gullible, selfish, power-hungry jerk who was willing to destroy the world and everyone in it in exchange for superpowers and super nookie. Even Dark Willow rationalized her world-ending spree as stopping all the pain; Angel doesn't even
( ... )
He's not a gullible, selfish, power-hungry jerk. There are so many people - clever people! - who acted that way in real life. Unfortunately, the history of my country is full of examples. All revolutions in Russia were made by clever people who thought they could make the world better. And I know personally several people who underwent transformations similar to Angel's journey in season 5. After the fall of the communist regime they planned to create a better world working within the power structures. And they failed. 20 years ago they considered themselves rebels against the system and today they turned into the system's servants
( ... )
If we'd been given any scrap of a plausible reason why Angel thought that killing everyone in the world would result in a better world for them, I could buy that. But we haven't been. Angel's better world was all for himself.
Angel was tricked into believing that he saves the world. That he has to sacrifice a number of people to save the rest. He didn't know that his actions will lead to the apocalypse.
Kitty Twilight successfully played on his most weak spot - desire to be a noble savior - and used Angel-the-clever-intriguer and Angel-the methodical-planner to achieve its goals - to manipulate Buffy into space-frak and creation of Twilight dimension.
I can't remember Angel ever indicating that he thought anyone other than himself and Buffy would be saved. There are a couple of things he said which might be interpreted to mean that he thought he and Buffy could create a new and superior race to inhabit their new world, but IMO that's a big 'might.' If Angel really thought he could save some people by destroying the rest of them, why didn't he point that out to Buffy when he was trying to convince her to stay? Why didn't he offer to bring Buffy's friends into the new world with them, when she said that they were really all she cared about?
Di you read the Riley one shot? There the plan is to save the world (the old one). In the Twilight dimension Angel was pretty obviously blindsided by the revelation of what was going on in the old world and trying (literally) to cover while it sunk in. Angel got played. Dumbass.
Faux!Whistler makes two references to saving the world in the one-shot. But what is Angel supposed to be saving the world from? If this is what he believes, why doesn't he try to say or do anything about it later? Once he wakes up in the Twilight dimension, he's not about saving anyone from anything; indeed, he tries to talk Buffy out of going back to save people. (And this may just be Jeanty's art, but to me he looks, at most, mildly surprised to find out people are dying, and certainly not concerned or guilty
( ... )
But what is Angel supposed to be saving the world from?
Vampires are in and slayers are out - this is a world that stands on the brink of the disaster.
But in the main comic, the only purpose Angel seems to have for doing so is to boink Twilight into existence. There's no mention there of saving the world. And if the only mention of a pretty damn important character motivation is in two panels of a last-minute fill-in oneshot for the least popular character in the enter 'verse, pardon me if I suspect that the writers were not terribly interested in ensuring that Angel had a reasonable motive for what he did.
Touché. Although I think the scene itself wasn't a last-minute idea. And - Riley one-shot sales numbers (38,119) aren't redically smaller than regular issues' sales numbers (#35 - 45,446; #36 - 44,883).
Vampires are in and slayers are out - this is a world that stands on the brink of the disaster.
I don't see any indication of that. It sucks for Buffy that everyone hates her, but the world at large is not shown to be in any immediate danger of collapsing. How it it any worse off than when there was only one Slayer?
This is the problem with saying that the plot doesn't matter, it's all about the emotions. If the plot doesn't work, the emotions have nothing to stand on.
In the main comic (#36) Angel arrives form some kind of future/altU in which he expects all the lights of his city to be dark. That pretty straightforwardly gives him a reason to think the world needs saving if he doesn't do something. I agree the implication is that up to #33 the main purpose of all his deceptions is to get Buffy superpowered and eventually be her Valkyrie but he seems pretty fuzzy on the details of what happens inbetween. Still that would be true of pretty well every plan he's ever had from Acathala to taking out the Black Thorn.One thing I thik we can rule out is that he thought the plan was to fuck a new universe into being. He seems as gobsmacked that they end up in Twilight as she is.
"No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again. Sometimes I just want it to stay saved!" - Mr. Incredible
It wouldn't be at all hard to sell me on the notion that Angel is disillusioned with saving the world and paying penance (he's gotten that way before). I could buy that he would get to a place where he would jump at an offer to retire to a new, unpeopled dimension with just his best girl at his side. I'm getting the idea, though, that whatever Angel's S8 motivations are, the writers failed to make them clear to most readers.
O_o
Angel of AtS was a flawed, tragic, existential hero. That's the one Joss doesn't seem to understand. Joss forced the character back into the role of mission's boyfriend-cum-villain (and Buffy back into the role of Angel's girlfriend-cum-victim) for the comics.
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That's what I was going to say... Twangel is just a moron. (I have a lovely plot bunny for your ficathon btw. Probably quite short, but nice and plump. *g*) Anyway, it confirms my impression that none of the writers have ever seen AtS.
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I agree., If nothing else these poorly written comics serve to bang home just how much Whedon has forgotten about his character and his emotional journey in AtS and how readilly he is to regress him just to fit his being nothing more then a cipher for Buffy's storyline.
So sad when you come to think about.
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I think that Joss's plan for Twilight arc was make Angel realize that he always *is* that other guy he usually blames.
"No, there'll be no Twilight". Angel says in #38. "Father, there already is," Kitty replies. "It's you".
From here the new Angel starts.
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As it's quite possible to read this story as Angel being under Twilight's mental control, this makes him even LESS culpable for his actions this time around. It's far more like Spike being controlled by the First - do you think Spike's responsible for the people he killed then? If Spike gets a pass for being controlled by the first, why shouldn't Angel get a pass for being controlled by Twilight?
And if Angel is not controlled by Twilight, then he's just a gullible, selfish, power-hungry jerk who was willing to destroy the world and everyone in it in exchange for superpowers and super nookie. Even Dark Willow rationalized her world-ending spree as stopping all the pain; Angel doesn't even ( ... )
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Kitty Twilight successfully played on his most weak spot - desire to be a noble savior - and used Angel-the-clever-intriguer and Angel-the methodical-planner to achieve its goals - to manipulate Buffy into space-frak and creation of Twilight dimension.
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Vampires are in and slayers are out - this is a world that stands on the brink of the disaster.
But in the main comic, the only purpose Angel seems to have for doing so is to boink Twilight into existence. There's no mention there of saving the world. And if the only mention of a pretty damn important character motivation is in two panels of a last-minute fill-in oneshot for the least popular character in the enter 'verse, pardon me if I suspect that the writers were not terribly interested in ensuring that Angel had a reasonable motive for what he did.
Touché. Although I think the scene itself wasn't a last-minute idea. And - Riley one-shot sales numbers (38,119) aren't redically smaller than regular issues' sales numbers (#35 - 45,446; #36 - 44,883).
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I don't see any indication of that. It sucks for Buffy that everyone hates her, but the world at large is not shown to be in any immediate danger of collapsing. How it it any worse off than when there was only one Slayer?
This is the problem with saying that the plot doesn't matter, it's all about the emotions. If the plot doesn't work, the emotions have nothing to stand on.
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It wouldn't be at all hard to sell me on the notion that Angel is disillusioned with saving the world and paying penance (he's gotten that way before). I could buy that he would get to a place where he would jump at an offer to retire to a new, unpeopled dimension with just his best girl at his side. I'm getting the idea, though, that whatever Angel's S8 motivations are, the writers failed to make them clear to most readers.
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