Imagine watching "Becoming 2" one act a month. Imagine that you finished watching act 3 that ends with Whistler telling Buffy she has one more thing to lose, and you have to wait anoher month to find out how exactly it plays out.
Good point. My quibble with this issue is that most of the issues have an individual plot, too (Buffy and Spike go for the seed, Angel and Buffy have sex, Twilight is unmasked, etc), and this one just plods along. But at this point in the story, I guess it can't be helped. One more downside of the comics medium. *sigh*
It will be interesting to see how Joss manages to keep BtVS' feminist cred intact.
I think we gave up on that months ago.
The possession cop-out cheapens the impact of the season's climax, but it's the only way to keep Angel's hero status intact. Like in season 2, Angel gets a doppelganger to blame.This is a bit different, though. It'd be like blaming Cordelia for her possession in S4 (and whoa, CA fic idea! Poor, violated AtS characters... :D). Before now, Angel's made some serious
( ... )
This is a bit different, though. It'd be like blaming Cordelia for her possession in S4
Good point. I agree, its' a stretch to compare Angel/Angelus to Angel/Twilight.
(and whoa, CA fic idea! Poor, violated AtS characters... :D).
Write it! Write it! Angel and Cordelia debate whose possession was worse, and Spike recollects how he was possessed by The First...
Before now, Angel's made some serious mistakes. One of many consequences is his subsequent mindrape by Twilight, and I wouldn't even consider this an excuse to get him off scot-free. It's not him.
Yes. But if it's not him - if it's Kitty Twilight - then what's the whole point of Buffy fighting against her evil daughter? How it's connected with the theme of the season?
The problem is that if Buffy is attacked by her evil child, who turned evil because of her mother's neglection, then the message of the season becomes blatantly anti-feminist. (I don't want to go there right now, I need to read the next issue before I start talking about it).
She didn't turn evil 'cause of her mother's neglect, though. She was born soulless. And she was already evil before she was even born, I'd argue. Buffy's neglect didn't make her evil.
It seduced Angel into murdering people so it could be born. It also wanted its parents to stay there so the world could be destroyed so it could triumph. It's cruel, callous, selfish, uncompromising and without mercy--where's the lack of evil here? Or how about where are the good qualities that show it's not evil but in fact good? :)
Twilight-the-entity isn't good and I don't believe it's morally neutral--that leaves me with evil.
irredeemable evil newborn is a baffling idea to me
I take it you're not a Roman Catholic, then :-)
I agree with Emmie's word choice: the new universe is soulless. Quite literally and explicitly so: its soul is the Seed of Wonder, and it doesn't have possession of it yet. In fact it's fighting to get its soul just like Spike.
I always have to go back to my primary question with the entire "The Plan" strategy - Why would something good have to be born from so much violence, torture and chaos? That is equivalent almost to saying I will beat goodness into you even if I have to kill you to do it.
Outside of metaphor like a Black Kali mythic symbol, this entire birth through violation and physical and emotional abuse if nothing but offensive to me.
Why would something good have to be born from so much violence, torture and chaos?
A question that has puzzled people throughout the ages. :-)
"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
I've said it before: Angel's attitude to me (in the earlier part of the season, not to mention Season 5 of his own show) symbolises the attitude of the True Believer, or revolutionary, or religious fanatic who wants to create a better world out of the wreckage of the old, and sees bloodshed as a sad but inevitable price to pay to achieve it. I'm sure Elena knows of a few examples of the kind of people I'm thinking of ;-)
"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
Don't forget about all those people who died because of Harry Lime's crimes. ;)
Angel's attitude to me (in the earlier part of the season, not to mention Season 5 of his own show) symbolises the attitude of the True Believer, or revolutionary, or religious fanatic who wants to create a better world out of the wreckage of the old, and sees bloodshed as a sad but inevitable price to pay to achieve it. I'm sure Elena knows of a few examples of the kind of people I'm thinking of ;-)Yes, I know what you're talking about - but, to me, Angel's motivations are completely different. He doesn't want it. He is cornered by Twilight. He is tricked. Although he knows that "prophecies are bunch of bull", he believes them
( ... )
the new universe is soulless. Quite literally and explicitly so: its soul is the Seed of Wonder, and it doesn't have possession of it yet. In fact it's fighting to get its soul just like Spike.
Good point.
BTW, I think the soul issue would have worked better if Angel had made a conscious decision to fight for the soul of his child. It would have been heartbreaking, horrible - yet brilliant.
But, apparently, Joss realises that after such twist Angel would 've been totally and completely unsalvageable. So Joss takes great pains to separate Angel from Twangel. Angel is just a brainwashed puppet. (I'm torn about it, frankly).
Good point. My quibble with this issue is that most of the issues have an individual plot, too (Buffy and Spike go for the seed, Angel and Buffy have sex, Twilight is unmasked, etc), and this one just plods along. But at this point in the story, I guess it can't be helped. One more downside of the comics medium. *sigh*
It will be interesting to see how Joss manages to keep BtVS' feminist cred intact.
I think we gave up on that months ago.
The possession cop-out cheapens the impact of the season's climax, but it's the only way to keep Angel's hero status intact. Like in season 2, Angel gets a doppelganger to blame.This is a bit different, though. It'd be like blaming Cordelia for her possession in S4 (and whoa, CA fic idea! Poor, violated AtS characters... :D). Before now, Angel's made some serious ( ... )
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Good point. I agree, its' a stretch to compare Angel/Angelus to Angel/Twilight.
(and whoa, CA fic idea! Poor, violated AtS characters... :D).
Write it! Write it! Angel and Cordelia debate whose possession was worse, and Spike recollects how he was possessed by The First...
Before now, Angel's made some serious mistakes. One of many consequences is his subsequent mindrape by Twilight, and I wouldn't even consider this an excuse to get him off scot-free. It's not him.
Yes. But if it's not him - if it's Kitty Twilight - then what's the whole point of Buffy fighting against her evil daughter? How it's connected with the theme of the season?
The problem is that if Buffy is attacked by her evil child, who turned evil because of her mother's neglection, then the message of the season becomes blatantly anti-feminist. (I don't want to go there right now, I need to read the next issue before I start talking about it).
I like BFF Spuffy! But I ( ... )
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She didn't turn evil 'cause of her mother's neglect, though. She was born soulless. And she was already evil before she was even born, I'd argue. Buffy's neglect didn't make her evil.
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Twilight-the-entity isn't good and I don't believe it's morally neutral--that leaves me with evil.
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I take it you're not a Roman Catholic, then :-)
I agree with Emmie's word choice: the new universe is soulless. Quite literally and explicitly so: its soul is the Seed of Wonder, and it doesn't have possession of it yet. In fact it's fighting to get its soul just like Spike.
Reply
Outside of metaphor like a Black Kali mythic symbol, this entire birth through violation and physical and emotional abuse if nothing but offensive to me.
Reply
A question that has puzzled people throughout the ages. :-)
"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
I've said it before: Angel's attitude to me (in the earlier part of the season, not to mention Season 5 of his own show) symbolises the attitude of the True Believer, or revolutionary, or religious fanatic who wants to create a better world out of the wreckage of the old, and sees bloodshed as a sad but inevitable price to pay to achieve it. I'm sure Elena knows of a few examples of the kind of people I'm thinking of ;-)
Reply
Don't forget about all those people who died because of Harry Lime's crimes. ;)
Angel's attitude to me (in the earlier part of the season, not to mention Season 5 of his own show) symbolises the attitude of the True Believer, or revolutionary, or religious fanatic who wants to create a better world out of the wreckage of the old, and sees bloodshed as a sad but inevitable price to pay to achieve it. I'm sure Elena knows of a few examples of the kind of people I'm thinking of ;-)Yes, I know what you're talking about - but, to me, Angel's motivations are completely different. He doesn't want it. He is cornered by Twilight. He is tricked. Although he knows that "prophecies are bunch of bull", he believes them ( ... )
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Good point.
BTW, I think the soul issue would have worked better if Angel had made a conscious decision to fight for the soul of his child. It would have been heartbreaking, horrible - yet brilliant.
But, apparently, Joss realises that after such twist Angel would 've been totally and completely unsalvageable. So Joss takes great pains to separate Angel from Twangel. Angel is just a brainwashed puppet. (I'm torn about it, frankly).
Reply
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