And I kind of had a hunch all along that they were all dead anyway
Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I don't think that the Losties in the primary universe were ever meant to be dead (aside from the ones who obviously were-- Michael's ghost, Jacob, and so forth). I think that the secondary universe was meant to have been where their post-death consciousnesses transferred to.
And why didn't Jack or Desmond turn into a smoke monster after going down the well?
GOOD EFFING QUESTION. What happened at that point in "Across The Sea"? Did Smokey just fall down onto the rock? "Hey, bro! There's a big glowing, rotating thing down here!" Also, if someone can find their way back to the Source after being led there, why couldn't Smokey after Jacob dragged him there and threw him in? /shrug
How come they didn't make anything of the parallel between the stab wound in Jack's abdomen and his appendectomy on the beach?
Maybe because the wounds to his neck and stomach were his death wounds.
Saturday night reminded me of how sympathetic a character Jack was for the first season and a half or so and how much he changed for the worse.
Funny; I've felt that Jack was an annoying douche up until the last season-and-a-half. I'm still not a Jack fan, per se, but... I've come to sympathize with him.
Why is Hurley called Hurley???
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Where were Mr. Eko and Walt?
Perhaps they're "not ready" a la Ana Lucia. Maybe they were ready earlier.
And then, of course, what of Ben not going into the church? Is he in some kind of self-imposed Purgatory now?
I felt that Ben wanted to stay in order to live out his life with Rousseau and Alex. I think that Ben loved Alex so much that he chose to put off ascending to some higher spiritual plane just to look out for her.
"Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I don't think that the Losties in the primary universe were ever meant to be dead (aside from the ones who obviously were-- Michael's ghost, Jacob, and so forth). I think that the secondary universe was meant to have been where their post-death consciousnesses transferred to."
Well, I've now switched my thinking, after reading a number of postings on the LJ communities, that the flashes-sideways are the only post-life experiences that they had; the rest was real.
"Funny; I've felt that Jack was an annoying douche up until the last season-and-a-half. I'm still not a Jack fan, per se, but... I've come to sympathize with him."
Actually, I hated him in Seasons 3-5; he started to seem more sympathetic again this season, but not like he was the first season. I'm starting to think he had to go through the emo stage as, being a doctor, he was forced to get past his "God complex" and finally come to realize that he couldn't "fix" everything.
"I felt that Ben wanted to stay in order to live out his life with Rousseau and Alex. I think that Ben loved Alex so much that he chose to put off ascending to some higher spiritual plane just to look out for her."
That makes sense to me (except is he really in that universe? where's his bad hair? and is Hurley dead now???).
After reading all the postings in the henrygalelovers community, I'm coming to believe that I actually may have gotten my wish, at least temporarily:
"I guess up till that point in the episode, I was somewhat satisfied ... I really wanted Hurley to be the new Jacob, and Ben the new Richard ..."
The rest of it, of course, being a sequel to the series starring Hurley and Ben as the ultimate comedy team. (Their sheer nerdiness would blow Big Bang Theory right out of the water!)
Well, I've now switched my thinking, after reading a number of postings on the LJ communities, that the flashes-sideways are the only post-life experiences that they had; the rest was real.
I'm glad you've come around to that way of thinking. If I'd ever taken it the way you initially took it, I would have been horribly frustrated and annoyed.
Actually, I hated him in Seasons 3-5; he started to seem more sympathetic again this season, but not like he was the first season. I'm starting to think he had to go through the emo stage as, being a doctor, he was forced to get past his "God complex" and finally come to realize that he couldn't "fix" everything.
I, actually, started to like him just a tiny bit more during his breakdown. Not because he was doing anything better, but just because he was more entertaining. Of course, this will always be my favorite Jack moment:
Just kidding. Or am I?
The funny thing is, I think I gained a lot of sympathy for Jack when I was doing my fanmix for him. It was the first time that had occurred to me, actually: Holy shit. How awful would it be to be in love with Kate?
where's his bad hair?
YOU MEAN HIS ADORABLE TEACHER HAIR
and is Hurley dead now???
Unless I'm wrong, Hurley is dead in the primary universe, in the future. Or, rather, he will die at some point. After that, his consciousness will transfer over (from the POV of someone in primary timeline present) or has transferred over (from the POV of someone in secondary timeline present). Did I explain that clearly?
The rest of it, of course, being a sequel to the series starring Hurley and Ben as the ultimate comedy team.
XD Imagine what sort of off-the-wall plans those two would come up with for the people who end up on the island. Less bloodshed, but it'd be even more convoluted, I imagine.
Now I just have to find some way to imagine Samuel (apparently Smokey's maybe quasi-official name now[?] I don't know) back to life and we'll be set.
LOL ... I shouldn't be laughing, but that flying toolbox anim does look really funny ... repeated over and over.
"The funny thing is, I think I gained a lot of sympathy for Jack when I was doing my fanmix for him. It was the first time that had occurred to me, actually: Holy shit. How awful would it be to be in love with Kate?"
OMG, you're right! She officially became the Most Annoying Character for me in Season 3 when she stood there sobbing and begging Jack to save Sawyer's life. (But I still think they kind of deserved each other.)
"YOU MEAN HIS ADORABLE TEACHER HAIR"
Well, we thought it was adorable, of course; it was Michael Emerson who made fun of sideways!Ben's "bad hair" in the online commentary he wrote for that episode.
"Unless I'm wrong, Hurley is dead in the primary universe, in the future. Or, rather, he will die at some point. After that, his consciousness will transfer over (from the POV of someone in primary timeline present) or has transferred over (from the POV of someone in secondary timeline present). Did I explain that clearly?"
Yep, sort of. Now that I think of sideways time as being outside of our chronological time, I believe Hurley and Ben are still alive in 2010 island time, and will be for a long time to come. Go Burley!
"XD Imagine what sort of off-the-wall plans those two would come up with for the people who end up on the island. Less bloodshed, but it'd be even more convoluted, I imagine."
OMG, I want to watch that show so badly! (And wouldn't it be a nice change to watch them in an episodic series where we don't end up more confused at the end of each episode than we were at the one before it? After the last six years, I don't have any braincells left to process another puzzle like that one!)
Samuel is Smokey's quasi-official name now? Where'd you hear that? (I so want him to have a name.) Yeah, it'd be kinda cool to bring him back; his ending was the only one that wasn't really satisfying. I mean, he wasn't such a bad guy (his only crime being curiosity about the outside world) until Jacob through him into the "unicorn den" (as someone so hilariously put it on the henrygale community). Although he was willing to kill his fake mother to do it. I even kind of wonder if it was really his human consciousness that became the smoke monster, or if it was just the "badness" in him (that exists in all of us) that got concentrated and ejected out of the well. (Still so much to ponder. Will we ever run out of questions? Stay tuned.)
OMG, you're right! She officially became the Most Annoying Character for me in Season 3 when she stood there sobbing and begging Jack to save Sawyer's life. (But I still think they kind of deserved each other.)
Kate, for me, has been remarkably obnoxious since mid-season one.
Well, we thought it was adorable, of course; it was Michael Emerson who made fun of sideways!Ben's "bad hair" in the online commentary he wrote for that episode.
Sorry, even Michael Emerson isn't allowed to make fun of Ben.
(Joking, of course. Don't know if you know me well enough yet to know that I'm not that rabid.)
Yep, sort of. Now that I think of sideways time as being outside of our chronological time, I believe Hurley and Ben are still alive in 2010 island time, and will be for a long time to come. Go Burley!
I see the flash-sideways to also be flash-forwards, in this regard.
Samuel is Smokey's quasi-official name now? Where'd you hear that?
Some show I don't remember the name of and never watch except it was Lost-related. Apparently, "Samuel" was the name used in the scripts, so I think that's about as official a name as we're gonna get for him.
"unicorn den" (as someone so hilariously put it on the henrygale community)
Who was it? I was fairly certain that one of my friends originated the "unicorn den" description (I always called it the portal to Narnia); perhaps we're thinking of the same person.
I even kind of wonder if it was really his human consciousness that became the smoke monster, or if it was just the "badness" in him (that exists in all of us) that got concentrated and ejected out of the well.
I think he stayed as he was. He didn't come off as all that different in "Ab Aeterno" than he did in "Across The Sea." Presumably, time changed both Jacob and Samuel: Samuel became so tormented by his captivity on the island that he became a psychopath, and Jacob, somehow, stopped being a little bitch.
So far as the (for me) horribly disappointing end of Smokey, it wasn't just that Kate The Douchebag killed him; it was also that his and Jacob's debate about humanity seemed to have just been discarded as irrelevant. It seemed like Jacob tried to prove his point for several centuries and eventually just gave up and decided to kill Smokey.
Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I've been away for a while, moving and getting settled, but it's been on my To Do list ...
"I see the flash-sideways to also be flash-forwards, in this regard."
Yes, as I flash back on it all, I see what we thought at the time were flashes-sideways to be further flash-forwards. (On the other hand, I still haven't seen the epilogue, so I have yet to find out what that further answers may be revealed there--and don't want to know till I see it! Hopefully, the big reveal will be an opening for a spin-off starring Michael, Terry, and Jorge wandering around the jungle exchanging absurd quips.)
I wonder why they never gave "The Man in Black" a name. Anything but "The Man in Black"--this presumes he can never wear any other color! Of course, not giving him a name, is sort of the ultimate insult, isn't it? Makes you feel a bit sorry for him. (The more I think about it, the more I like it that Ben's character is never resolved. He isn't good; he isn't evil. He's about equal parts both. Which goes to the Buddhist/Taoism concept that there is no good or evil/"duality," whereas in western culture, we tend to want to put labels on everything. Same goes for "Samuel" and "Jacob." Interestingly, Samuel starts out as the favorite and gets damned simply for wanting to leave the island; Jacob ends up in control because of his lack of curiosity. It seems rather arbitrary (their sartorial color choices aside). They make a big deal about "black versus white," "science and faith," but in the end, the answer is a little bit of both.
"So far as the (for me) horribly disappointing end of Smokey, it wasn't just that Kate The Douchebag killed him; it was also that his and Jacob's debate about humanity seemed to have just been discarded as irrelevant. It seemed like Jacob tried to prove his point for several centuries and eventually just gave up and decided to kill Smokey."
True. This is one of the things that's still bothering me about the ending. I expected it to be a bit more intelligent/philosophical, and it ended up being a bit of a cliché in that respect. Bad guy chases good guys until all seems lost (no pun intended) and then at the very last second, one of the good guys we forgot about turns up and kills the bad guy, they escape, and live happily ever after--um, wherever that may be--The End.
"Who was it? I was fairly certain that one of my friends originated the "unicorn den" description (I always called it the portal to Narnia); perhaps we're thinking of the same person."
I went back to check and ... it was you (or your friend). "Portal to Narnia" is a pretty good one too. Mind if I use it?
Sorry for not replying to this sooner. I've been away for a while, moving and getting settled, but it's been on my To Do list ...
It's okay!
Shhhbpppbppp! (Flashback noise)
still haven't seen the epilogue, so I have yet to find out what that further answers may be revealed there
The amusing thing about the epilogue is that much of it is precisely what the show was not: people standing around and rattling off explanations for things.
A few of the things they addressed were things I strongly expected never to be addressed in any form, so it was funny to see them come up again.
Of course, not giving him a name, is sort of the ultimate insult, isn't it? Makes you feel a bit sorry for him.
I do feel sorry for him! The show did him dirty in several respects.
Samuel starts out as the favorite and gets damned simply for wanting to leave the island; Jacob ends up in control because of his lack of curiosity.
This sums it up pretty well. That was what appalled me about Jacob in "Across the Sea." Modern-day Jacob seems to be curious, to be interested. He cares about understanding people. Remember the mini-speech he gave to Hurley at the end of "Lighthouse," about how some people have to be allowed to find their own paths to the truth? I mean, can you imagine "Across the Sea" Jacob saying anything like that?
they escape, and live happily ever after--um, wherever that may be
My guess is they live in Honolulu-standing-in-for-L.A. I mean, if it's not on the Island, that's where it usually is.
I went back to check and ... it was you (or your friend). "Portal to Narnia" is a pretty good one too. Mind if I use it?
I hereby transfer all "Portal to Narnia" usage rights to you.
Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I don't think that the Losties in the primary universe were ever meant to be dead (aside from the ones who obviously were-- Michael's ghost, Jacob, and so forth). I think that the secondary universe was meant to have been where their post-death consciousnesses transferred to.
And why didn't Jack or Desmond turn into a smoke monster after going down the well?
GOOD EFFING QUESTION. What happened at that point in "Across The Sea"? Did Smokey just fall down onto the rock? "Hey, bro! There's a big glowing, rotating thing down here!" Also, if someone can find their way back to the Source after being led there, why couldn't Smokey after Jacob dragged him there and threw him in? /shrug
How come they didn't make anything of the parallel between the stab wound in Jack's abdomen and his appendectomy on the beach?
Maybe because the wounds to his neck and stomach were his death wounds.
Saturday night reminded me of how sympathetic a character Jack was for the first season and a half or so and how much he changed for the worse.
Funny; I've felt that Jack was an annoying douche up until the last season-and-a-half. I'm still not a Jack fan, per se, but... I've come to sympathize with him.
Why is Hurley called Hurley???
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Where were Mr. Eko and Walt?
Perhaps they're "not ready" a la Ana Lucia. Maybe they were ready earlier.
And then, of course, what of Ben not going into the church? Is he in some kind of self-imposed Purgatory now?
I felt that Ben wanted to stay in order to live out his life with Rousseau and Alex. I think that Ben loved Alex so much that he chose to put off ascending to some higher spiritual plane just to look out for her.
Reply
Well, I've now switched my thinking, after reading a number of postings on the LJ communities, that the flashes-sideways are the only post-life experiences that they had; the rest was real.
"Funny; I've felt that Jack was an annoying douche up until the last season-and-a-half. I'm still not a Jack fan, per se, but... I've come to sympathize with him."
Actually, I hated him in Seasons 3-5; he started to seem more sympathetic again this season, but not like he was the first season. I'm starting to think he had to go through the emo stage as, being a doctor, he was forced to get past his "God complex" and finally come to realize that he couldn't "fix" everything.
"I felt that Ben wanted to stay in order to live out his life with Rousseau and Alex. I think that Ben loved Alex so much that he chose to put off ascending to some higher spiritual plane just to look out for her."
That makes sense to me (except is he really in that universe? where's his bad hair? and is Hurley dead now???).
After reading all the postings in the henrygalelovers community, I'm coming to believe that I actually may have gotten my wish, at least temporarily:
"I guess up till that point in the episode, I was somewhat satisfied ... I really wanted Hurley to be the new Jacob, and Ben the new Richard ..."
The rest of it, of course, being a sequel to the series starring Hurley and Ben as the ultimate comedy team. (Their sheer nerdiness would blow Big Bang Theory right out of the water!)
Reply
I'm glad you've come around to that way of thinking. If I'd ever taken it the way you initially took it, I would have been horribly frustrated and annoyed.
Actually, I hated him in Seasons 3-5; he started to seem more sympathetic again this season, but not like he was the first season. I'm starting to think he had to go through the emo stage as, being a doctor, he was forced to get past his "God complex" and finally come to realize that he couldn't "fix" everything.
I, actually, started to like him just a tiny bit more during his breakdown. Not because he was doing anything better, but just because he was more entertaining. Of course, this will always be my favorite Jack moment:
Just kidding. Or am I?
The funny thing is, I think I gained a lot of sympathy for Jack when I was doing my fanmix for him. It was the first time that had occurred to me, actually: Holy shit. How awful would it be to be in love with Kate?
where's his bad hair?
YOU MEAN HIS ADORABLE TEACHER HAIR
and is Hurley dead now???
Unless I'm wrong, Hurley is dead in the primary universe, in the future. Or, rather, he will die at some point. After that, his consciousness will transfer over (from the POV of someone in primary timeline present) or has transferred over (from the POV of someone in secondary timeline present). Did I explain that clearly?
The rest of it, of course, being a sequel to the series starring Hurley and Ben as the ultimate comedy team.
XD Imagine what sort of off-the-wall plans those two would come up with for the people who end up on the island. Less bloodshed, but it'd be even more convoluted, I imagine.
Now I just have to find some way to imagine Samuel (apparently Smokey's maybe quasi-official name now[?] I don't know) back to life and we'll be set.
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"The funny thing is, I think I gained a lot of sympathy for Jack when I was doing my fanmix for him. It was the first time that had occurred to me, actually: Holy shit. How awful would it be to be in love with Kate?"
OMG, you're right! She officially became the Most Annoying Character for me in Season 3 when she stood there sobbing and begging Jack to save Sawyer's life. (But I still think they kind of deserved each other.)
"YOU MEAN HIS ADORABLE TEACHER HAIR"
Well, we thought it was adorable, of course; it was Michael Emerson who made fun of sideways!Ben's "bad hair" in the online commentary he wrote for that episode.
"Unless I'm wrong, Hurley is dead in the primary universe, in the future. Or, rather, he will die at some point. After that, his consciousness will transfer over (from the POV of someone in primary timeline present) or has transferred over (from the POV of someone in secondary timeline present). Did I explain that clearly?"
Yep, sort of. Now that I think of sideways time as being outside of our chronological time, I believe Hurley and Ben are still alive in 2010 island time, and will be for a long time to come. Go Burley!
"XD Imagine what sort of off-the-wall plans those two would come up with for the people who end up on the island. Less bloodshed, but it'd be even more convoluted, I imagine."
OMG, I want to watch that show so badly! (And wouldn't it be a nice change to watch them in an episodic series where we don't end up more confused at the end of each episode than we were at the one before it? After the last six years, I don't have any braincells left to process another puzzle like that one!)
Samuel is Smokey's quasi-official name now? Where'd you hear that? (I so want him to have a name.) Yeah, it'd be kinda cool to bring him back; his ending was the only one that wasn't really satisfying. I mean, he wasn't such a bad guy (his only crime being curiosity about the outside world) until Jacob through him into the "unicorn den" (as someone so hilariously put it on the henrygale community). Although he was willing to kill his fake mother to do it. I even kind of wonder if it was really his human consciousness that became the smoke monster, or if it was just the "badness" in him (that exists in all of us) that got concentrated and ejected out of the well. (Still so much to ponder. Will we ever run out of questions? Stay tuned.)
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Kate, for me, has been remarkably obnoxious since mid-season one.
Well, we thought it was adorable, of course; it was Michael Emerson who made fun of sideways!Ben's "bad hair" in the online commentary he wrote for that episode.
Sorry, even Michael Emerson isn't allowed to make fun of Ben.
(Joking, of course. Don't know if you know me well enough yet to know that I'm not that rabid.)
Yep, sort of. Now that I think of sideways time as being outside of our chronological time, I believe Hurley and Ben are still alive in 2010 island time, and will be for a long time to come. Go Burley!
I see the flash-sideways to also be flash-forwards, in this regard.
Samuel is Smokey's quasi-official name now? Where'd you hear that?
Some show I don't remember the name of and never watch except it was Lost-related. Apparently, "Samuel" was the name used in the scripts, so I think that's about as official a name as we're gonna get for him.
"unicorn den" (as someone so hilariously put it on the henrygale community)
Who was it? I was fairly certain that one of my friends originated the "unicorn den" description (I always called it the portal to Narnia); perhaps we're thinking of the same person.
I even kind of wonder if it was really his human consciousness that became the smoke monster, or if it was just the "badness" in him (that exists in all of us) that got concentrated and ejected out of the well.
I think he stayed as he was. He didn't come off as all that different in "Ab Aeterno" than he did in "Across The Sea." Presumably, time changed both Jacob and Samuel: Samuel became so tormented by his captivity on the island that he became a psychopath, and Jacob, somehow, stopped being a little bitch.
So far as the (for me) horribly disappointing end of Smokey, it wasn't just that Kate The Douchebag killed him; it was also that his and Jacob's debate about humanity seemed to have just been discarded as irrelevant. It seemed like Jacob tried to prove his point for several centuries and eventually just gave up and decided to kill Smokey.
Reply
"I see the flash-sideways to also be flash-forwards, in this regard."
Yes, as I flash back on it all, I see what we thought at the time were flashes-sideways to be further flash-forwards. (On the other hand, I still haven't seen the epilogue, so I have yet to find out what that further answers may be revealed there--and don't want to know till I see it! Hopefully, the big reveal will be an opening for a spin-off starring Michael, Terry, and Jorge wandering around the jungle exchanging absurd quips.)
I wonder why they never gave "The Man in Black" a name. Anything but "The Man in Black"--this presumes he can never wear any other color! Of course, not giving him a name, is sort of the ultimate insult, isn't it? Makes you feel a bit sorry for him. (The more I think about it, the more I like it that Ben's character is never resolved. He isn't good; he isn't evil. He's about equal parts both. Which goes to the Buddhist/Taoism concept that there is no good or evil/"duality," whereas in western culture, we tend to want to put labels on everything. Same goes for "Samuel" and "Jacob." Interestingly, Samuel starts out as the favorite and gets damned simply for wanting to leave the island; Jacob ends up in control because of his lack of curiosity. It seems rather arbitrary (their sartorial color choices aside). They make a big deal about "black versus white," "science and faith," but in the end, the answer is a little bit of both.
"So far as the (for me) horribly disappointing end of Smokey, it wasn't just that Kate The Douchebag killed him; it was also that his and Jacob's debate about humanity seemed to have just been discarded as irrelevant. It seemed like Jacob tried to prove his point for several centuries and eventually just gave up and decided to kill Smokey."
True. This is one of the things that's still bothering me about the ending. I expected it to be a bit more intelligent/philosophical, and it ended up being a bit of a cliché in that respect. Bad guy chases good guys until all seems lost (no pun intended) and then at the very last second, one of the good guys we forgot about turns up and kills the bad guy, they escape, and live happily ever after--um, wherever that may be--The End.
"Who was it? I was fairly certain that one of my friends originated the "unicorn den" description (I always called it the portal to Narnia); perhaps we're thinking of the same person."
I went back to check and ... it was you (or your friend). "Portal to Narnia" is a pretty good one too. Mind if I use it?
Reply
It's okay!
Shhhbpppbppp! (Flashback noise)
still haven't seen the epilogue, so I have yet to find out what that further answers may be revealed there
The amusing thing about the epilogue is that much of it is precisely what the show was not: people standing around and rattling off explanations for things.
A few of the things they addressed were things I strongly expected never to be addressed in any form, so it was funny to see them come up again.
Of course, not giving him a name, is sort of the ultimate insult, isn't it? Makes you feel a bit sorry for him.
I do feel sorry for him! The show did him dirty in several respects.
Samuel starts out as the favorite and gets damned simply for wanting to leave the island; Jacob ends up in control because of his lack of curiosity.
This sums it up pretty well. That was what appalled me about Jacob in "Across the Sea." Modern-day Jacob seems to be curious, to be interested. He cares about understanding people. Remember the mini-speech he gave to Hurley at the end of "Lighthouse," about how some people have to be allowed to find their own paths to the truth? I mean, can you imagine "Across the Sea" Jacob saying anything like that?
they escape, and live happily ever after--um, wherever that may be
My guess is they live in Honolulu-standing-in-for-L.A. I mean, if it's not on the Island, that's where it usually is.
I went back to check and ... it was you (or your friend). "Portal to Narnia" is a pretty good one too. Mind if I use it?
I hereby transfer all "Portal to Narnia" usage rights to you.
The girl who came up with "the unicorn den" also does Lost fanart. Some of it is really superb-- have a look. http://buuya.deviantart.com/gallery/#LOST
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