(Untitled)

[missturtle]

I just found out that the Pledge of Allegiance was ruled unconstitutional because of separation of church and state, after a complaint by an atheist. In the Pledge, you say "One nation, under God...". What's everyone's opinion on this?

Comments

[courtly]

Well, here's how I see it...

Everyone is supposed to be free to make their choices.

The country should, ideally, be fair to all people.

If the line stays as it was ammended (i.e. with the "Under God" in there), then it forces anyone who is religious but isn't Christian to choose not to say those words, to risk alienation because of their choice. (Christians, of course, don't have to decide because it's already set up perfectly for their faith).

If the line goes this new way (i.e. without the "Under God") then ALL religious people are forced to decide what they wish to say. Including Christians.

Even more important, since this is taught in school, a place all children are legally required to be, it forces the official wording down the throats of an impressionable youth. It's certainly not fair to require school-age children to make complex choices like whether or not to say something that agrees with their family's religious beliefs or not.

I think it's more fair to all, to have state-sanctioned creeds be religion-neutral.

Re:

[ladycinderella]

I believe, tradition. Leave it the way it is...but the option and the teaching of it should include what you have said. So that if you are not Christian, you may say something else such as "under the Diety" or "under the Goddess" or whatever the case may be.

Re:

[courtly]

Oh, I don't agree there. What if the tradition includes a prejudice? Obviously, we have to fix the tradition.

Simplest terms... what if the allegiance read "Allah" instead of "God"? Would you be in favour of just having all Christians omit the word?

That's how I see it. It's just not fair to have a state-sponsored creed imply that believing in God makes you somehow MORE of a part of the state than if you don't.

Re:

[ladycinderella]

I'd say, if other religions want to teach a different pledge, let them.
I'd be happy saying "Allah" if I was of that religion. I wouldn't mind if it did say "God". Of course, I'm very open-minded and flexible. Tis the majority they were looking at, aye?

Re:

[courtly]

But it's not religions teaching the pledge, dear. It's the school system. Which is supposed to sponsor no religion. Which is why someone challenged their inclusion of the words... and why the court decided it was a bad decision that the words had been inserted in the 1950s.

So they are taking the reference to the Christian God away, which I think is probably for the best.

Re:

[ladycinderella]

I knew that. That is what I meant. The schools should teach the kids that there could be more than one way to say the pledge and then the parents or the church (of choice) would have an influence there. In all, it's all up to the person.

So..History classes that I've taken weren't complete. I never knew the pledge was fiddled with in the 50's.

Re:

[courtly]

I've been doing a lot of reading about this since it came up in peoples' LJ's since I'm from out-of-country.

It's quite interesting, the stuff I've been reading. It rather renews my faith in the origins of the US. It scares me that popular opinion seems to have shifted away from the facts. The modern world has a way of rewriting history that's always a little alarming when you see it in evidence.

[tiredangelchild]

I'm going with courtly here

[missturtle]

I understand the point, and there is such thing as separation of church and state, so legally, I think we don't have a choice. However, this country was founded under God. I highly doubt people will face alienation if they choose not to say that phrase. Especially since there are usually several people saying it, most people wouldn't notice whether one says it or not. I understand the reasons behind the controversy, and legally, there isn't a choice, but the truth is that this country was founded under God, and something like 97% of the people who live here are Christian. I guarantee, I will always say Under God, and I will always teach my child that. If those who don't believe in God wish to teach their children otherwise, so be it. I also believe that since there is so much controversy, maybe this shouldn't be taught in schools. I've heard that this guy wants to change anything, including songs, and everything else that talks about the U.S., the nation, to not include the word God in it. This includes national monuments. I'm sorry, that's taking it a big far. Yes, one has the right to choose, but this is taking it a bit far.

Re:

[courtly]

Well, keep in mind that this idea that the U.S. was founded as a "Christian Nation" is actually untrue. Popular culture says so, but the founding fathers do not...

Check out the infamous Article 11 of the 1796/97 Treaty with Tripoli:

“Article 11. As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries”

There's also some really good dissection of the significance of that article in the local consciousness of the time to be found at http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/buckner_tripoli.html

Now, having said that, I fully support your right to teach your Children to respect God in thought, word, and deed. (As well as personally commending you on the goodness of that decision).