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Dearly beloved,
Here is a simple truth.
If you believe that gay marriage is wrong, even by name, you are a bigot, you are intolerant, and you do not have my respect.
Let's run down the list.
1) Leviticus 18:22: What the church doesn't want you to know and why God doesn't give a damn.Part I ( Read more... )
Here is a simple truth.
If you believe that gay marriage is wrong, even by name, you are a bigot, you are intolerant, and you do not have my respect.
Let's run down the list.
1) Leviticus 18:22: What the church doesn't want you to know and why God doesn't give a damn.Part I ( Read more... )
Anyhow, my point is. I take the entire Bible as God's Word and I live according to it. In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus states that he has not come to abolish the law but fullfill it. I also disagree completely with what you stated about marriage being formed as a bargaining tool. God created marriage in Genesis 2:24.
Oh, and the reason that Christians do not stone to death the rebellious child or kill those that commit adultry is because 1)God is the judge and
James 4:12 states we are not to judge because that is God's position. 2)Colossians 1:16 states that all rulers and authorities were created by God. Therefore as Christians we are to obey the law of the land. The controversy comes when the law of the land contradicts the Bible.
I as I said obey the entire Bible. That also includes loving your neighbor as yourself.
I do ask... what type of proof do you have that the Bible wasn't conceptualized prior to the sins that it condems. Let's face it, carbon dating has been proven none scientific in many instances. There are too many environmental factors that can alter the results. Plus... NOTHING in the Bible has ever been proven false. Plus, God's word was written down by mere mortals, but it was not written by mortals such as ourselves. God wrote the Bible.
I realize you don't agree with my opinions and I am in no means forcing you to believe mine, I am just taking a stand for my faith. See it really seems that you have freedom of speech as long as you aren't a Christian here in teh grand land of the U.S.. Well the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion gives me the right to speak my opinion as much as anybody else. Just like it gives you the right to do the same.
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Fornification ~ n. consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary)
So, homosexual sex is against God's Word since God created marriage and it was recorded in Genesis 2:24
That is all I have to say. So in the public opinion of the definition of bigotry, I am one. And so is everybody else that thinks because I take my stand I am a bigot.
To me I don't care if somebody is gay or a different religion. See, Jesus said in Matthew 19:19 to love your neighbor as yourself. He did not say love your neighbor if they have the same morals/beliefs/convictions/religion/or anything else as you.
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Hold on.
Joshua and sun standing still.
Game over. Pool closed. Don't even try and claim scientific primacy here.
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I find it utterly amusing I'm being asked to provide proof that the sun can't stand still.
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So I am to understand that everything else in the Bible is fact except this one selection? Then if God created earth why couldn't He stop the rotation? Or freeze time or which ever.
You are contradicting yourself there if that is the only thing.
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Fornification ~ n. consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary)
So, homosexual sex is against God's Word since God created marriage and it was recorded in Genesis 2:24
1) Cite me the Bible verse that mentions fornication
2) Take into account what I already mentioned about selective terminology used in newer and newer translations of the Bible.
3) Does this Bible verse refer explicitly to homosexuals?
4) What the hell does the Genesis verse have to do with justifying discrimination against gay rights?
As for reveling in being called a bigot, you are astounding. If you're that stubborn and refuse to accept things that are presented to you, enjoy living in your dark, enclosed, closet of a world. The world is waiting for you to catch up whenever you decide to open the door and let a crack of light inside.
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Romans 1:24-32
I don't have the time to type it all out in the NIV plus the NIV omits teh word fornication and puts in sexual impurity.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(Romans 1:24-32, KJV)
If you would like I will speak to a language specialist that has a copy of original text with the hebrew/greek/ and aramaic words and I can get teh definitions for you, but it will take about a week.
As far as explicitly to homosexuals? No, it's all sexual impurity.
The Genesis verse is when God created marriage and it was between one man and one woman. The first 5 books of the Bible were written down by Moses. Pretty much any Jew or theology major can tell you that. Moses was about 4000 years ago if I am doing my math right.
And as I said in the other comment, I am not reveling about being a bigot. Just simply... if I am then so are you. By the WAy a bigot, to further read the definition in Merrriam Webster's Dictionary... a person obstintely or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
So you lashing out at Christianity and even like minded indiviuals as myself, are a bigot. It goes both ways Kelly.
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But if we want to go along with this verse, why not treat all people - not only homosexuals - in this light? If all of these people deserve death, and homosexuals as "perverted" and "fornicators" don't deserve all of their civil liberties, why not do the same for everyone mentioned here? Why not press for the greedy to not have civil rights? Or the unmerciful? What about the disobedient to their parents, the covenantbreakers, the backbiters and gossipers, those who DEBATE (look at what we're both doing!), the liars... why can atheists marry when they're, for all intensive purposes, "God-haters"?
Either use the scripture in its entirety, or I would re-examine what you choose to call Biblically justified.
And as I said in the other comment, I am not reveling about being a bigot. Just simply... if I am then so are you. By the WAy a bigot, to further read the definition in Merrriam Webster's Dictionary... a person obstintely or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
So you lashing out at Christianity and even like minded indiviuals as myself, are a bigot. It goes both ways Kelly.
Oh, if only this could be true.
If you read your very own definition, you'll see that obstinate belief in something is belief that's stubbornly adhered to, or ignorantly followed. I have not made a single claim here without backing myself up. These are by no stretch of the imagination obstinate beliefs. They are researched and supported, many of them by Christian scholars.
Honestly, if you want to play the childish game of "I know you are, but what am I?" I would recommend turning to your children for a lesson in how to play nice.
Bigotry does not come into play simply because I disagree with you with the evidence at hand. You're old enough to be able to distinguish this fact.
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Do you:
Wear polyster?
Eat pork?
Eat shrimp or shellfish?
Have a credit card?
Eat food that is more than three days old?
Have any pieces of ID in which your photo appears (or have any pictures at all for that matter)?
If you do any of the first five, you are committing acts that are referred to in Leviticus as an abomination, the same phrase it applies to homosexuality.
The ID/picture thing is about idolatry and graven images. The Amish, for example, prohibit having photos taken of yourself or keeping photos for these reasons. Of course, I accept that that is an interpretation, and given that you are using a computer I'm going to guess you're not Amish, so you may hold to a different interpretation of that commandment. But that's the point: You interpret the words of the Bible. If you are living according to a particular interpretation of the Bible, how can you claim to live according to God's word, when that word is subject to the rationalities of mortal beings like ourselves?
All that being said, I get the impression that you're not inclined to judge and you understand the concept of loving your neighbour, and I respect that. You clearly don't have hatred in your heart, and to me hatred is the source of bigotry, so I'm not about to label you a bigot.
Where we run into problems is if you're saying the law has to reflect your belief system. While you choose to live your life according the Bible, you are also required to live your life according to the laws of the land ('Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's'). The U.S. Constitution (I'm going to assume you're American...I haven't checked your userinfo) and the Bill of Rights says that no person can be denied access to the services of government, which include marriage. So there is no legal grounds for denying homosexuals the right to marry.
Fortunately the Constitution also mandates the separation of Church and State, which means that no faith should be forced perform marriages that go against its strictures, so you're fine.
But the separation of church and state also means you, and the followers of your faith, have no right to dictate to anyone who does not share your faith how they may live their lives. It further means that there is no basis for fashioning government laws according to the strictures of your faith.
The same law that allows you to live according to your faith should allow me to marry whomever I choose. That is why the U.S. is a democracy and not a theocracy.
P.S. Please don't go around saying things like 'can anybody prove to me the Bible isn't true?' First of all, that's not our job. However accurate the Bible is or isn't is irrelevant because its existence and truthfulness does not invalidate the laws of government, which still have to be adhered to. Secondly, what do you care if it's true or not? I thought faith was about belief, whole-hearted acceptance of God's promise. If that's the case, you shouldn't need proof, and you certainly shouldn't need people who don't even share your belief system to validate it for you.
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I've never claimed someone was a bigot because they don't agree with me. I claim people are bigots when they incorrectly justify intolerance (or frankly, ever justifying intolerance). Not agreeing with a viewpoint when supported by facts and reason is by no stretch of the imagination a bigoted standpoint.
Disagreeing with said standpoint, however, could be seen as ignorant. And if you would like to call me that, I would like to see your evidence that contradicts mine, all of which is supported by scripture, theologians, scholars, and scientists.
In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus states that he has not come to abolish the law but fullfill it.
Yeah, and that's exactly why Old Testament ritual practices are moot. Read the exchange between lonely_maiden and myself to see how this works out. I also explained it in my post.
I also disagree completely with what you stated about marriage being formed as a bargaining tool. God created marriage in Genesis 2:24.
Genesis also implies that the earth is 6000 years old. What else are we going to buy?
If you want to read more about the history of marriage through reciprocal exchange, anthropologists have been studying this for decades extensively. One person inparticular who delves into this subject is Marvin Harris. Look him up, he's a fun read (and he uses lots of logical evidence). There are also tribes/bands of people living today who still practice the reciprocal exchanges of their ancestors (or they did within recent decades, before they interacted more with modernized people). They're a living testament to historical marital practices.
...The controversy comes when the law of the land contradicts the Bible.
Is this used to justify following the rest of the Old Testament? I think this would quickly lead us to circular reasoning.
I do ask... what type of proof do you have that the Bible wasn't conceptualized prior to the sins that it condems.
The New Testament was written between 80-140 A.D. The Old Testament was written somewhere in the range of 1000 to a few hundred years earlier. People existed before this time. People did the same things that later constituted "sin." The Bible was likley based on earlier writings, but man and his behavior predates the written word or any sort of formalized large-scale society.
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I've read a study that claimed to disprove the viability of carbon dating. They tried to carbon date a penguin that was about 3 years old and came up with an age of something ridiculous like 3000. They therefore claimed that carbon dating was a crock.
The problem was... they tried to carbon date a LIVE penguin.
Let's look at how carbon dating works. Carbon dating relies on measuring the amount of C-14 (a carbon isotope found in all living things) in a dead creature. When we're living, our bodies are constantly taking in C-14, so when we die, we no longer replenish this. After that, C-14 is subject to radioactive decay, and since this half-life is so short (a few thousand years), it works great for relatively recent specimens. So, since scientists can calculate how much C-14 an organism started out with, they can use the known half-life of C-14 and the measurement of how much C-14 is left in the organism and figure out its age.
Doing this on a living thing obviously does not work.
Also, carbon dating is only ONE method of dating. Many many others are used to date organisms, minerals, and rocks, which undoubtedly date the earth back at least 4.6 billion years, the age of the oldest Archaen rock we've discovered.
Lastly, the only thing that can EVER affect an element's rate of radioactive decay... is exposure to other radiactive materials. It is a pure lie to say that environmental factors alter this finite rate of radioactive decay. You've been grossly misinformed.
By no stretch of the imagination has carbon dating or any other radiometric dating used to calculate the age of organisms or the earth been proven false. There are too many FACTS to back up this method of dating. Please do tell me how it's been proven false if you believe otherwise.
Plus... NOTHING in the Bible has ever been proven false.
Um... how about that whole "the earth is a dome" thing? That stars are just lights placed in the sky? How about the moon itself supposedly being a light? How about the earth standing still with the universe revolving around it? How's that all working out?
See it really seems that you have freedom of speech as long as you aren't a Christian here in teh grand land of the U.S.. Well the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion gives me the right to speak my opinion as much as anybody else. Just like it gives you the right to do the same.
Sure, you can say what you want. That doesn't mean you can pass it off as fact, and it by no means implies that you should use this religious bias to be reflected in the legislation of a nation that is unabashedly secular in its every foundation. You have the right to free speech; you have the right to freely practice your faith. You do not, however, have a right to legislate those beliefs or speak your mind at leisure to justify impeding the civil rights of your fellow citizens.
Also, in a logical debate, you need more than your first amendment rights to back up your claims. This seems to be vastly absent in this sort of Christian-pandering argumentation.
I frankly don't care what religious beliefs you hold. What I do care about is when people like-minded to yourself decide that what Christianity dictates should be reflected in our government's laws. If you can't justify a ban of gay marriages outside of "God says so," you have no business imposing beliefs in our laws - and that's precisely what you're doing when you vote based on archaic Christian discrimination.
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For the dating, I have seen and read in more than one instance where the carbon dating and other means has failed. On one show on the History channel they were dating mummies and low and behold the same mummy dated two different ages. nearly 2000 years off.
They have also had instances in the rocks were their dating methods don't agree because in the sedament is one way and it be a known fact that something under it is not as old.
I don't revel in being called a bigot, but I don't care. According to Merriam Webster, a bigot is a hypocrite. I am not a hypocrite.
And as I have stated before, because the forefathers of the United States (Christian, Athiest, and what ever else they were) put in the bill of rights freedom of speech, freedom of religion and several other of our rights. I can have any opinion or belief I want and it doesn't matter if you approve. And for the sole fact that the United States is a democracy, I can vote the way I choose and teach my children as I choose.
You telling me I have no right to impose my beliefs?
Did you know the average life expectance of a homosexual is 44?
The average length of a gay marriage is 18 months and during those 18 months there is an average of 8 other partners?
Did you know that the averge medical services that fall to federal programs from a gay person is nearly half a million?
I will be the first to say that just because I am straight and a Christian doesn't mean I am perfect, I know I am not.
and frankly, I know from past experience it don't matter what I say you are going to argue it. I used more than my first ammendment rights to back up my claims. I merely stood up for my beliefs because you were twisting the Word of God. So, for the legislate beliefs on others? hello? last I checked the US was still a democracy. Impeding the civil rights of fellow citizens? So you think because you choose to support the gay lifestyle I have to accept it and sit in a corner and cower? I don't think so. You have no right to force your chosen lifestyle on me or my kids as a fellow citizen. Which is exactly what like minded individuals as yourself are trying to do.
By the way? calling Christianity archaic is pretty deep considering it is only 2000 years old. What do you think about Judiaism and the other religions of the world? are they archaic too? Or is it just because you don't agree with the Christian faith?
I will pray for you. That is all I can do. But see, faith is just like science, you have to believe in it.
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You telling me I have no right to impose my beliefs?
Did you know the average life expectance of a homosexual is 44?
The average length of a gay marriage is 18 months and during those 18 months there is an average of 8 other partners?
Did you know that the averge medical services that fall to federal programs from a gay person is nearly half a million?
I certenly hope you have some proof to back those claims up.
I will be the first to say that just because I am straight and a Christian doesn't mean I am perfect, I know I am not.
and frankly, I know from past experience it don't matter what I say you are going to argue it. I used more than my first ammendment rights to back up my claims. I merely stood up for my beliefs because you were twisting the Word of God. So, for the legislate beliefs on others? hello? last I checked the US was still a democracy. Impeding the civil rights of fellow citizens? So you think because you choose to support the gay lifestyle I have to accept it and sit in a corner and cower? I don't think so. You have no right to force your chosen lifestyle on me or my kids as a fellow citizen. Which is exactly what like minded individuals as yourself are trying to do.
Two things from this, first of all no one is challenging your right to be a Christian. However Kelleh's impetus for writing this was people who were against gay marriage, which is impugning their right. In that difference bigotry exists.
Also, if we do start passing laws to outlaw abortions and gay marriages based on the Bible, how is that different from fundamentalist Islamic countries basing their legal systems on Sharia law?
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