what? this is how i cope with stress? i meta.
This isn’t an attack or judgment on anyone or their ships and kinks. I very simply do not care what others find their squee in especially not enough to want to cast aspersions on them for it. This is about *me* and *my* preferences and clarifying those preferences for *me* and the only reason that I'm making it public is because I enjoy discussion. This could’ve just as easily been a meditation on why I prefer het, but I’ve already run across that post (and mostly agreed with it) and have yet to read a post like this (that didn’t boil down the poster acting morally superior and condescending to other fen); therefore, this my attempt to write that post.
First, I’m not a natural slasher. After years in fandom, I’ve come to accept that I’m one of the few women who isn’t *totally* into the hotboysex. Oh well, for me. It’s not that I have a problem with slash or think slashers are not playing with a full deck. Often, I do see, in an intellectual way, the elements that would lead to a slashy interpretation of the text, but it just doesn’t usually-- there are exceptions like Maj. Winters/Capt. Nixon of Band of Brothers, Seth/Ryan of The OC, Sirius/Remus of HP and Sam/Frodo of LOTR movies-- ping me. Still, even with my exceptions, it’s plain to see that when I ship I tend to ship het. So, I’m not entirely certain that I would slash Sam and Dean even if they were only buddies.
Going with that line of thinking, my second reason is that there are simply some relationships that I don’t particularly want to see as sexual. It’s the old - vs. / discus sion. I had this issue with Michael and Isabel on Roswell and Mal and Zoe on Firefly. Sex, love, and romance is a complicated venture that can be mighty interesting to explore in fiction (or not, because we’ve all read that fic that stole our favorite character’s names and pasted them onto characters from a mediocre romance novel), but, for me, sex sometimes simplifies the larger picture between two characters unto boredom rather than adding an intriguing element. It sometimes wraps up the elements of their relationship a little *too* neatly, for me. If Zoe has stuck around Mal all these years because she's sekritly in love with him then that simplifies Zoe's character and motivations casting her as a semi-tragic or pathetic, lovesick woman who has 'bravely' stood by a man who can't/doesn't love her back in that way, which could be construed as 'punishment' for being a strong, non-traditionally feminine woman, and married another man in order not to be lonely or to try to move on from Mal or some other reason that denigrates Zoe/Wash's marriage. This scenario just shuts down too many interesting lines of thinking about Zoe, Zoe and Mal, and Zoe and Wash for me.
Also, it can steal the thing that I love *best* about the relationship between two characters. For instance, I loved that Isabel is Michael’s annoyed and exasperated older sister (see: 'ARCC' and Christmas Nazi) who still loves him to death (see: 'The Balance' and later in 'ARCC'). Near the end of S1, when TPTB tried to sell Isabel as Michael's fiancee in a past life, I didn't like it because it created this awkwardness between the two characters that, imo, drove them away from each other for most of the rest of the show. Similarly, I adore that same brotherly interaction between Sam and Dean. I love all the times that they rag on and support each other in that backhanded way that only family could and does. It’s a very funny and moving aspect of the show to me and to sexualize their relationship means reinterpreting a lot of their brotherly gestures to be about being lovers and that takes away a dimension of their relationship that hooked me on them.
And, I don’t have a problem with incest ships. IMHO, they’re not advocating or even dealing with actual incest. The fact that fen are writing and shipping incest ships is no big deal especially given its place in classic literature and contemporary media. Do I think that some authors handel it better than others, with more thought and awareness than other authors? Yes! But you find that with any text in or out of the realm of fanfic dealing with any issue in fiction. Some writers are better than others. Period.
You know, I even ship a few incest ships. Much like slashers, as slash was orinigally defined, I thought that it was in some instances a valid interpretation of the text that was highly unlikely to be dealt with in canon (except that it was in Lost and also touched on in Firefly *g*) and could lead to showing interesting aspects of the characters and their relationship. The things that pinged me about the incest ships I did/do ship-- Isabel/Max on Roswell, Simon/River on Firefly, Shannon/Boone on Lost and depending on the fic Dean/sister!Winchester --are/were the obsessive/possessive quality of these character's relationships, the way the focus on this one person collapses boundaries particularly boundaries regarding one's identity, (FYI: I'm fully aware that Sam and Dean fit the first two criteria) and basically the way they lead to, for me, a denaturalization of traditional notions of romantic love. For example, it's 'alright' for Max to be weird and jealous about Liz, his soulmate *snerk*, to the point where he's grabbing and threatening her (see: entire series, but particularly late S2) because he's in love with her, but when that same behavior is applied to Isabel (see: also, entire series, but particularly late S2), his sister, we see how confining that is for Isabel and how wrong and downright scary Max is for doing that to her. The same critique applies to Liz's behavior. It's 'fine' for Liz to devote herself to Max above all others-- her closest friends, her family, her once bright future. In fact, it's grand high romance of Tristan and Isuelt proportions (and, incidentally, a marriage vow) that we women are supposed to swoon over. Yet, when Isabel devotes herself to her brother in the same way (see: 'Toy House,' 'Departure,' and 'Graduation'), we think their relationship is 'too close for comfort.' However, as far as I've seen (and I might be wrong because, honestly, I've done my best to stay away from Sam/Dean and have judiciously used my ability not only to not click but to back click), Sam/Dean is about reinforcing those notions of traditional romance only in a m/m context and that just doesn't appeal to me.
Finally, the reason that this particular pairing bothers me is because it hits my only major squick, adult/child or rather the unequal power relationship that adult/child infers. Now, I don't hold to delusions that Dean's an adult while Sam's a child. Sam is my age and I'm definitely not a kid anymore and I haven't been through half the tough situations that Sam has prior to and during the show. My problem is that Dean reads, to me, as something of a quasi-parental figure to Sam. It's canon that Dean was often left in charge of Sam when they were younger and has internalized his role as Sam's protector to the nth degree. Furthermore, Sam, imo, often reacts (especially in the beginning of the series) to Dean as if he were his parent, or at the very least a kind of stand-in for John, and still acts like and reaps the benefits of being the baby of the family. Plus, Sam and Dean are far enough apart in age that only *now* can they really begin to consider each other on equal footing as adults. Think of it, 4;8, 6;10, 10;14, 14;18-- hell, I'd even raise objections to an 18 year old and a 23 year old being able to relate to each other as equals. It may be only four years that separate the Winchester's, but it's a critical four years.
This leads me to a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation-- any incestuous activity before now has the shadow of something predatory hanging over it because Dean out ranks Sam in the Winchester chain of command which is OOC for Dean, as I see him, and any incest now seems OOC because they have twenty years of established behavior that is flexible enough to accommodate dealing with each other as adults, but will *always* contain remnants of and have to deal with how they've always seen each other. Meaning, Dean will always think of Sam as the baby he was responsible for taking care of and getting away from harm and Sam will always think of Dean as his more capable (in the world of hunting) older brother who protects him. Although we're seeing that way of relating shift especially in the wake of John's death, it'll never completely change, imo. So, basically, I see it as OOC behavior. That's it.
And that's all she wrote!
Oh, also, long live the p0rn esp emop0rn. :)
ETA: I originally wrote this post months ago in January, but after considering making it public I decided to keep it for my eyes only because it truly was just for me, but since I've heard from here and there about some Anti-Wincest posts/comments that went down in fandom, I thought I might add my $.02 because I really like this fandom and how, generally, great the people in it are to each other.
First, I’m not a natural slasher. After years in fandom, I’ve come to accept that I’m one of the few women who isn’t *totally* into the hotboysex. Oh well, for me. It’s not that I have a problem with slash or think slashers are not playing with a full deck. Often, I do see, in an intellectual way, the elements that would lead to a slashy interpretation of the text, but it just doesn’t usually-- there are exceptions like Maj. Winters/Capt. Nixon of Band of Brothers, Seth/Ryan of The OC, Sirius/Remus of HP and Sam/Frodo of LOTR movies-- ping me. Still, even with my exceptions, it’s plain to see that when I ship I tend to ship het. So, I’m not entirely certain that I would slash Sam and Dean even if they were only buddies.
Going with that line of thinking, my second reason is that there are simply some relationships that I don’t particularly want to see as sexual. It’s the old - vs. / discus sion. I had this issue with Michael and Isabel on Roswell and Mal and Zoe on Firefly. Sex, love, and romance is a complicated venture that can be mighty interesting to explore in fiction (or not, because we’ve all read that fic that stole our favorite character’s names and pasted them onto characters from a mediocre romance novel), but, for me, sex sometimes simplifies the larger picture between two characters unto boredom rather than adding an intriguing element. It sometimes wraps up the elements of their relationship a little *too* neatly, for me. If Zoe has stuck around Mal all these years because she's sekritly in love with him then that simplifies Zoe's character and motivations casting her as a semi-tragic or pathetic, lovesick woman who has 'bravely' stood by a man who can't/doesn't love her back in that way, which could be construed as 'punishment' for being a strong, non-traditionally feminine woman, and married another man in order not to be lonely or to try to move on from Mal or some other reason that denigrates Zoe/Wash's marriage. This scenario just shuts down too many interesting lines of thinking about Zoe, Zoe and Mal, and Zoe and Wash for me.
Also, it can steal the thing that I love *best* about the relationship between two characters. For instance, I loved that Isabel is Michael’s annoyed and exasperated older sister (see: 'ARCC' and Christmas Nazi) who still loves him to death (see: 'The Balance' and later in 'ARCC'). Near the end of S1, when TPTB tried to sell Isabel as Michael's fiancee in a past life, I didn't like it because it created this awkwardness between the two characters that, imo, drove them away from each other for most of the rest of the show. Similarly, I adore that same brotherly interaction between Sam and Dean. I love all the times that they rag on and support each other in that backhanded way that only family could and does. It’s a very funny and moving aspect of the show to me and to sexualize their relationship means reinterpreting a lot of their brotherly gestures to be about being lovers and that takes away a dimension of their relationship that hooked me on them.
And, I don’t have a problem with incest ships. IMHO, they’re not advocating or even dealing with actual incest. The fact that fen are writing and shipping incest ships is no big deal especially given its place in classic literature and contemporary media. Do I think that some authors handel it better than others, with more thought and awareness than other authors? Yes! But you find that with any text in or out of the realm of fanfic dealing with any issue in fiction. Some writers are better than others. Period.
You know, I even ship a few incest ships. Much like slashers, as slash was orinigally defined, I thought that it was in some instances a valid interpretation of the text that was highly unlikely to be dealt with in canon (except that it was in Lost and also touched on in Firefly *g*) and could lead to showing interesting aspects of the characters and their relationship. The things that pinged me about the incest ships I did/do ship-- Isabel/Max on Roswell, Simon/River on Firefly, Shannon/Boone on Lost and depending on the fic Dean/sister!Winchester --are/were the obsessive/possessive quality of these character's relationships, the way the focus on this one person collapses boundaries particularly boundaries regarding one's identity, (FYI: I'm fully aware that Sam and Dean fit the first two criteria) and basically the way they lead to, for me, a denaturalization of traditional notions of romantic love. For example, it's 'alright' for Max to be weird and jealous about Liz, his soulmate *snerk*, to the point where he's grabbing and threatening her (see: entire series, but particularly late S2) because he's in love with her, but when that same behavior is applied to Isabel (see: also, entire series, but particularly late S2), his sister, we see how confining that is for Isabel and how wrong and downright scary Max is for doing that to her. The same critique applies to Liz's behavior. It's 'fine' for Liz to devote herself to Max above all others-- her closest friends, her family, her once bright future. In fact, it's grand high romance of Tristan and Isuelt proportions (and, incidentally, a marriage vow) that we women are supposed to swoon over. Yet, when Isabel devotes herself to her brother in the same way (see: 'Toy House,' 'Departure,' and 'Graduation'), we think their relationship is 'too close for comfort.' However, as far as I've seen (and I might be wrong because, honestly, I've done my best to stay away from Sam/Dean and have judiciously used my ability not only to not click but to back click), Sam/Dean is about reinforcing those notions of traditional romance only in a m/m context and that just doesn't appeal to me.
Finally, the reason that this particular pairing bothers me is because it hits my only major squick, adult/child or rather the unequal power relationship that adult/child infers. Now, I don't hold to delusions that Dean's an adult while Sam's a child. Sam is my age and I'm definitely not a kid anymore and I haven't been through half the tough situations that Sam has prior to and during the show. My problem is that Dean reads, to me, as something of a quasi-parental figure to Sam. It's canon that Dean was often left in charge of Sam when they were younger and has internalized his role as Sam's protector to the nth degree. Furthermore, Sam, imo, often reacts (especially in the beginning of the series) to Dean as if he were his parent, or at the very least a kind of stand-in for John, and still acts like and reaps the benefits of being the baby of the family. Plus, Sam and Dean are far enough apart in age that only *now* can they really begin to consider each other on equal footing as adults. Think of it, 4;8, 6;10, 10;14, 14;18-- hell, I'd even raise objections to an 18 year old and a 23 year old being able to relate to each other as equals. It may be only four years that separate the Winchester's, but it's a critical four years.
This leads me to a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation-- any incestuous activity before now has the shadow of something predatory hanging over it because Dean out ranks Sam in the Winchester chain of command which is OOC for Dean, as I see him, and any incest now seems OOC because they have twenty years of established behavior that is flexible enough to accommodate dealing with each other as adults, but will *always* contain remnants of and have to deal with how they've always seen each other. Meaning, Dean will always think of Sam as the baby he was responsible for taking care of and getting away from harm and Sam will always think of Dean as his more capable (in the world of hunting) older brother who protects him. Although we're seeing that way of relating shift especially in the wake of John's death, it'll never completely change, imo. So, basically, I see it as OOC behavior. That's it.
And that's all she wrote!
Oh, also, long live the p0rn esp emop0rn. :)
ETA: I originally wrote this post months ago in January, but after considering making it public I decided to keep it for my eyes only because it truly was just for me, but since I've heard from here and there about some Anti-Wincest posts/comments that went down in fandom, I thought I might add my $.02 because I really like this fandom and how, generally, great the people in it are to each other.