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ergaleomancer September 16 2010, 10:18:17 UTC
People such as him and I -are- above society. Meaningless morals and ideas of 'normality' that do nothing more than hold people back and pin people down.... The things Allen says about you, I would have thought you would understand....

Society tells me that as a -woman- I should sit still and be quiet, leave the thinking to men and consider nothing other than which man I ought to marry.... I believe that such thoughts, even though they are accepted as =normal= by society are fundamentally WRONG. It is not I that is the deviant but rather that the number of people who are -not- aberrant has been pushed down by the crushing and oppressive force of =society= that we are in the minority.

Society tells me that as an ergaleomancer it is my duty to help the people of England...but when I come up with an innovative design that will solve some societal ill and eliminate disease and suffering for the common people I am some sort of secular heretic whose inventions are morally wrong. Morally wrong! For trying to -help- people and bring some manner of comfort! Because it would upset the proverbial apple cart of society and force people to treat each other better as the barriers keeping us apart as people are torn down, that cannot be tolerated and my very sworn duty is now something that they beg me to abandon.

Society tells me that as an ergaleomancer with a woman's body I am not to feel care for any man, as that would prove that my powers and my intellect are an abnormality, a passing phase, a fluke, because any woman who has care for a man must be subject and subjugated to his will, thinking nothing unique and for herself, but existing only to agree with him, nodding her head along with him with less thought and less individuality than even the most soulless of clockworks!

If =that= is the nature of society?! Let me be labelled as a deviant. Let me be labelled as aberrant and let me associate with the other =outcasts= that society has labelled as unwanted because we try to right its wrongs that it relies upon simply because it is like unto a cancer, large enough to sustain itself and -reliant- upon its sickening nature. I am =far= better than that, and so is Albedo.

I never believed it was possible for me to care about someone...for those -very- reasons. It would be like unto caring about a =sheep=, the thought of being intimate with livestock -disgusts- me. Albedo is the first person I have ever met excepting my own -parents- who treats me as a human being, and he says that in your world he is something that isn't even treated as being human!

If you can care about an android the way I care about my clockworks, why can you not even extend to him a measure of =humanity=?! When a clockwork in my world exceeds what it was meant to do and takes on an awareness and soul of its own, it is treated as having that soul by its inherent nature even if it was not -meant- to and not designed to! What about androids? What difference does he have to one of -those-, then...the differences in the nature of his creation sound no different to the line between a clockwork and a clank but -either- machine when in possession of a soul is =treated= to have a soul, while you speak highly of androids and Albedo tells me of a life treated as =trash= and a tool and nothing more than a means to an end because of the nature of his creation....

[She's not just crying, now she knows she's ranting and there are tears pouring down her face as she does so. She sounds like she's only getting breath so she can keep going.]

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miltianbunny September 16 2010, 10:29:14 UTC
I never thought of Albedo as anything other than a man! This isn't about his background as a URTV. I could care less about that, you know? Jr.'s an URTV, MOMO's a Realian, Ziggy is a Cyborg, chaos akin to a god, but I never thought of any of them as anything other than another being!

My problem with Albedo, most of our problems with Albedo, was that he killed for no other reason than to do so half of the time. -That- isn't right, regardless of what time or place you are from. Taking someone's life just to do so. Taking away someone's future for whatever twisted reason he did when he didn't have a clear goal in mind!

If he can change, that's fine. Not everyone remains the same forever, but forgive me if I'm not entirely sure when all I have ever seen from him after his... His... Well, for lack of a better term, after his psychotic break as a child, was cruelty, except when it came to the two people he held most dearly!

[Shion then huffs a little, obviously annoyed that she has basically just been accused of hating Albedo for the mere fact he was a URTV.]

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ergaleomancer September 16 2010, 10:55:13 UTC
[Theta is ranting about society in general--she's not upset with Shion personally so much as she is upset by the fact that =everyone= has expressed shock about her feelings for Albedo. The straw has broken the camel's back and Theta continues to rant and cry.]

How can you expect him to respect a society that would do that to him?! How can you expect him to make distinctions in people that have no more difference to each other than a flock of sheep? He sees a difference in me--I am not a =sheep=!

You'll meet the drones here...you can't help but meet the drones here...that is what all of society looks like to us...to those people that would treat us badly because we refuse to conform to what is 'normal'. This isn't about whether he's a URTV any more than it is about me being a woman--and believe you me in my time and era, that -is- being a second class citizen--this is about the fact that we refuse to keep our heads down and go along with the status quo when the status quo is fundamentally flawed!

If it makes me -immoral- for me to wish to assist people in need, to wish to break down the barriers that =society= has created to keep itself enshrined on the pillar of untouchableness in the name of status quo, even if that status quo is built on the -suffering- of many, then let me be called immoral. Let me be called a harlot for I will stand up against the crimes perpetrated against the people, even if these crimes are committed -by- the people in the name of society, blind to the harm they are causing themselves!

Let me be a pariah whose name is synonymous with ruin, but let me be one with -him-. There's so precious few who can understand what it's like to be in such a position; would you really begrudge me the one piece of happiness I have found because =you= don't understand the nature of what we have suffered that binds us together? We =are= better than the sheep, and we will stand together, separate from society if need be.

[She's finally starting to actually calm down again. Unfortunately, that's a statement of degrees.]

His methods are extreme...even relative to mine, which are -scandalous-, but the things that we do are a -statement-...that the herd cannot continue blindly on as it has been and it does.... I try to shatter society...to wake up people's =minds=...in an era as closed as mine it's easy enough to do just by the way I -dress-...a lime green cravat in the face of sensibilities is -enough-. In this more tolerant, more enlightened future of yours...maybe a few people =have= had to die to make a /point/.

[She takes a deep breath and lets it out slowly.]

He is calming down. We can worry about releasing humanity from its herd once we've broken free of Mayfield, and with me in your world to bring Victorian era subtlety...if we cannot break the herd loose then perhaps we will at least be able to steer it away from certain destruction and on towards a place where it's closer to -possible- for humanity to realise what it's done to itself and what shackles it has placed upon itself.

We have...come to a bit of understanding about the levels of death and destruction... If you're worried about there being a holocaust at his hands you need not.

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miltianbunny September 16 2010, 11:09:59 UTC
Oh for crying out-

You're missing the point! I understand that sometimes things can't be helped! I won't say I haven't soiled my hands in things that may, in the end, not be justified, but I at least had the good sense to fill -guilty- about it! I have never seen Albedo once feel guilty about the murders he committed, whether the ones which he felt served a purpose, or the ones he didn't.

No one here is trying to tell you you're wrong for caring for Albedo, so much as we ourselves have never seen a side of him that could care for -anyone- but his brothers! We have never seen a side that extends beyond his homicidal, ranting behavior, except in very rare glimpses!

I'm sorry your society sees you as second rate, I'm sorry that my society often saw Albedo, Jr. and Gaignun as mere weapons, the Realians as information gatherers, and so on, but at some point, one has to realize that just because ninety percent of the population thinks of you that way, does not mean the other ten percent does, and taking your anger out on an entire set of people for the crimes of one is never right!

[Shion stops for a breath, obviously having said the last bit in as fast a time period, and with as little air as she could take in as possible.]

You talk about sheep. About people who want you to conform to a mold, and about herding them. But what is a herder? It's someone who makes their flock move on command, taking away their free will merely to lead them wherever they please.

You can't claim to want freedom, yet threaten to take away freedom.

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ergaleomancer September 16 2010, 12:07:20 UTC
[Theta's calmed down from her rage, finally, but she's still very passionate about what she's saying.]

What good does feeling guilty do? If you do something for the right reasons and it turns out to have been the wrong course of action...you might feel guilty for the -harm- it caused but there's no sense in feeling guilty for what you've =done=. It's a semantical argument and I know, but if you take away the intent behind it then that suffering becomes -meaningless-.

Maybe you'd see a side of him you didn't think was there if you'd take the time to =see= it and stop trying to judge him on actions you don't understand the motivations behind. If he doesn't seem to feel remorse the way -you- think he ought to, maybe it's because saying that what's been done shouldn't have been done would be like saying that what's been done might as well have been done for no reason. It's like when soldiers die at war--people hate that they have /died/, might hate that there has /been/ a war, but they would not regret the soldiers' having /fought/ in it.

If I was to have blood on my hands...even if I learned afterwards that it had been in vain...I would rather be able to have said that it was in -effort- of the greater good even if it didn't work -out- that way.

If there's ten percent...then that ten percent owes it to themselves and to the greater good to speak up and show the ninety the error of their ways. Just as I am doing. When you stand idly by and accept what the greater majority is doing, then you are a tacit accomplice in their crimes, regardless of what thoughts you have in your mind about them.

Would you stand idly by while a man beat a child? Would you stand aside and watch as the blows rain down? Because when you say that you feel differently but you do -nothing-...the child's injuries become partly your own fault. But as I understand it? Your friends...there's a group of you, yes? Your friends versus Wilhelm and Albedo and their lot...

The analogy would be better that you both are rushing forward to pull the man off this defenceless child, catch sight of each other, and now are arguing with each other about how best to pull him off! And maybe yes, Albedo's idea is to kill him to protect the child, while you'd rather see him pulled off and shackled unharmed, but -both- sides seem to be too busy trying to be right about what to =do= to the man that the child may be beaten to death before it matters.

Now that we're here in Mayfield...we're in a place where the child isn't being beaten any longer. There's another figurative man, and he's holding us prisoner here. Let's start with the fact that both sides wanted to protect that child, and use it as a way to find an -agreement-. And I suppose yes, there will be further arguing about how best to break free of this man, how best to take him down, and what to do with him when we've freed ourselves from his power enough that we might try to hold him accountable.

[She takes a deep breath and lets it out slowly, now getting not only calm but tired after her outburst.]

You've misunderstood about how I feel about the herd. I would -rather- see humankind freed of the herd mentality entirely. Goodness knows I've got no desire whatsoever to be a leader. But...I also know human nature well enough to know that if the herd is taken away before they're ready for it...they'll just make a new one.

If that -is- to be the case...better to herd them towards a place where they're /capable/ of living without the herd. It's an intermediate step, but it does -not- nullify the idea of freedom.

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miltianbunny September 16 2010, 22:18:18 UTC
Guilt proves you're human. Regretting taking a life, whether you see it for a good purpose or not, shows that your have a conscious. That's why I say what I say. For me, I can't imagine taking a life, any life, without regretting the harm it may cause to those who knew that person. If I didn't feel that regret, I wouldn't be me; I wouldn't be human.

And what side of Albedo are we to see? Other than the glimpse into his childhood, he never showed us a side beyond "humanity is weak for their petty emotions". So how are we to have understood him, when the last thing he seemed to have desired was to -be- understood?

If you feel as if everyone is against you, no one can help you. You have to be willing, first, to let their words in and to be willing to understand them. Otherwise, all you hear is what you wish to hear. Even if a million people are shouting at you that they love you, all you hear is a voice telling you what lies they shout.

[Shion's voice drops faintly.]

Your words, they conflict themselves though, don't they? You don't wish to be a leader, to be the herder, yet you will herd them if they are not heading on a path to be "capable of living without the herd"? How would you know that the path you, yourself perceive as being the right one truly is? How do you know that you won't merely lead them further into the herd mentality?

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ergaleomancer September 16 2010, 23:27:07 UTC
[Theta sighs, calming down enough to let Shion get through to her, finally.]

He's not -human- though. As much as he's a man...there are basic differences between humans and clockworks...humans and URTVs... I'm not saying... [She sighs, finding it hard to find words.] What I mean is that...

Unless the future is -very- different to my time...as a woman there's a point a month where you realise that we are -very- different to men. That doesn't change anything about your worth as a person, or mine, but it's just...part of who you are, and that part =is=.../different/ to men.

Albedo has...his moments...when he is different to humans. He's still just as much of a person as humans are, but... Just like you and I need spare bloomers, he needs a chance to...attend to things. I'm taking the time to get to know this, though, and find a way that -doesn't- involve people dying.

I'm not trying to convince you that he's perfect, or even to say he hasn't done things that are wrong. Just...that he has his reasons and he's not -evil-. Give him a chance. And give me a chance to give him a chance. And then...when we don't have to be so /defensive/...we'll be able to open up enough to let more people in.

But right now...we can't even let you in enough to let you understand...because giving just that much is giving you a way to cause more damage. Neither he nor I trust very many people enough for that. Not yet. But we have each other, and for...for that much it's been all the difference.

Yes, it's felt like the whole world is against us. I have enough of that to deal with in my own world. I don't suppose you know what a 'tabloid' is...I've been a publishing favourite for -years-. And for the first time in my life, I've found someone who understands what it's like to stand apart from society. And yet every time I mention his name...

Shock.
Horror.
Revulsion.

At -best-, concerns for my own safety.

Can you -imagine- what that feels like?

[She sighs again.] You sound like you've stood in that storm of a million voices...but have you ever known what it feels like to have it reversed? A million voices shouting their hatred, and a single voice of love trying to drown them all out.... When I can hear his voice more strongly over all the others...when he can hear mine over yours...then we might have the strength to show you our secret selves.

Until then...you'll have to take it on faith and what can be shown by talking to us on even ground. Even -I- tire of talking about myself, especially when I feel as though I'm having to win back ground with every word. When everything I say is seen through a taint that I am having to wipe away with every breath before I can -begin- to have my words taken seriously.

And with that in mind, I think we can discuss the politics of the herd at least at another time. I think we have a more pressing disagreement to come to a common ground about.

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miltianbunny September 16 2010, 23:46:21 UTC
You might be surprised what the storm I stood in was like. Most of it was my own doing, trying to listen to just one voice, and ignoring all the important ones around me despite their shouts.

[Shion seems to shift a little, as if she's possibly moved to look at something or someone in the house, before she returns to speaking.]

If Albedo's changed, I have no issue with learning about him. I just wanted you to understand why we have those feelings towards him when you mention him.

The side you seem to be speaking of, most of us have never been able to see.

As for the political stuff... I think it'd be best we hold off until we understand each other better, as you said.

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ergaleomancer September 16 2010, 23:54:04 UTC
[Theta is crying out of frustration now, and also a sense of despair. She's never felt like things are too big for her to handle before, but peoples' reactions to Albedo are starting to wear her down. When she says 'you', she's referring to -everyone- that she believes to have judged Albedo unfairly.]

I'll show you...I just need time...I just need time for things to equalise... I'll show all of you...

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miltianbunny September 16 2010, 23:56:49 UTC
Theta..?

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ergaleomancer September 16 2010, 23:59:21 UTC
[Theta will never admit to crying this much, and would rather Shion wasn't listening to it. She's got nothing further to say, so she hangs up the phone before she humiliates herself any more than she already has.]

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want_a_vacation September 17 2010, 01:17:43 UTC
*Have a very worried looking Allen.* Shion...? What was that all about?

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miltianbunny September 17 2010, 01:26:20 UTC
Huh? Oh... Nothing much. I just seem to have made someone upset, but I wasn't trying to.

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want_a_vacation September 17 2010, 01:42:39 UTC
I...had a similar argument with her when we first met.

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miltianbunny September 17 2010, 01:44:51 UTC
I see.

[Shion sighs deeply.]

I don't know what's going on with her, or with Albedo, but I just wanted to make her understand why we dislike him. Yet she was so intent on how we all misjudged him.

The only times I've ever seen him care for anyone was with his Brothers, and when he was younger he could care as well. But never again after that.

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want_a_vacation September 17 2010, 02:24:28 UTC
Yeah, she seems convinced we should give him another chance. But do you think we can really afford to, with how crazy he is?

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