Religion versus Medicine

[mick_hale]

This is a bit of a burning issue for me. I tend to take this very personally, especially within Judaism, since within Judaism, it should be crystal clear that the health, well-being, quality of life, and life of the patient takes precedence over any kind of halachic consideration whatsoever, with the exception of Murder, Adultery, and Idolatry (

Comments

[ehwhy]

We had a discussion this week about when we accept or ignore medical advise. Everything has to be handled on a case by case basis. Basically if the medical advise is from the Torah, then it would hold heavy weight. If it was developed later or proven wrong, it requires careful consideration and would not automatically be considered correct.

[vcfilks]

There is no medical advice in the Torah.

The Talmud, sure, but they got most of their medical knowledge from the Ancient Greeks, not from the Torah.

[ehwhy]

The topic was, what happens when Halacha contradicts science. In some cases we go with science and other times we decide that Halachic reality can be different than the real world. These principles could also be applied to medical cases.

[vcfilks]

How can halacha possibly contradict science? That doesn't make any sense. Halacha doesn't have an opinion on which medical treatments will work and which won't. It only has an opinion on which ones you are allowed and not allowed to undergo. The phrase "halachic reality" doesn't make any sense - since when does halacha try and determine a reality? Halacha only determines the appropriate action when you are confronted with a reality. Facts are facts; the Torah only tells you what to do with them.

[ehwhy]

There are many, many cases where a Halacha is brought down with a given explanation. Over time the reason is proven to be based on bad information or is no long applicable. There are generally two possibilities in such cases. One is to say "Lo ploog", once the halacha has been established it cannot be changed. The other is to adjusting the halacha to incorporate the new information. Each situation must be handled on a case by case basis

[vcfilks]

Even in these cases, halacha does not establish a reality. Those poskim that believe the halacha should change because we've learned something knew about our world we didn't know before are basically saying that halacha is a series of causes and effects. For instance, if [animal] is alive, then [animal] cannot be killed; the law doesn't change, but the application in one place comes out different than it used to because of new information.

On the other side, those who believe the halacha does not change are either being idiots or are recognizing the value of maintaining a tradition while still keeping in mind that the underlying reason for the law no longer applies. Which one it is depends on the situation. (There's an occasional third option in which a different reason can be found to maintain the same law and sidestep the issue.) But in no case does halacha actively state that the world is other than we find it to be.

[ehwhy]

I like your answer for the first case, but I am not sure about it's application of the 2nd case

[vcfilks]

What is the definition of "cooking" in a normal context?

Consider this: The word "melacha" means "work" - yet you're allowed to rearrange the furniture in your house on Shabbos but not flick a light switch. The way the word is used in a halachic context is very different from the straight meaning of the word.

Halacha doesn't pretend to provide a definition of the word "cooking" in a scientific context. If you need to cook something to ensure you kill off bacteria (in raw meat, for instance), halacha doesn't offer any pretensions, it doesn't try to tell you "use the halachic definition of cooking!" - you cook like a normal person would define it. Halacha doesn't change reality; it just creates legal definitions of certain words for use in a specific context. It recognizes that these do not necessarily have the same effects on the real world, and doesn't try to pretend that they do.

[ehwhy]

Thank you for clarifying what I have been trying to say. When discussing a halachic framework the definitions will not always be the same as the scientific definition. In such a case it is important to understand the differences in order to apply them properly.

[vcfilks]

Even so, halacha never seeks to redefine or contradict reality.

[ehwhy]

However, it can define the parameters in such a way to ignore variables that would appear to be relevant. You can call it whatever you want but I think if you look at our definitions we are pretty much describing the same thing.

[vcfilks]

I don't really understand what you're saying. I objected to your first comment because of the statement "if the medical advise is from the Torah, then it would hold heavy weight", and I've never seen the Torah offer medical advice. And any medical advice offered by the Talmud or anything else isn't something I'd give any weight to until/unless not contradicted by modern medical science.

[ehwhy]

Earlier this year was the first time I have ever gone to a Posek on a medical shilo. My Rabbi didn't feel knowledgeable enough to answer the question with someone more knowledgeable available. The person I spoke to is an expert in the field of medicine and even had a doctor present to double check my questions

[vcfilks]

Situations like that have nothing to do with halacha deciding a reality, however. It's deciding when you're allowed or not allowed to violate a law to save a life. Halacha doesn't try to tell you it won't work or anything like that.

I've asked pikuach nefesh questions multiple times.

[ehwhy]

OK