You know, I wrote a whole horror story about a God asking another woman to be the mother of christ, her saying no and then turning into a fucked up demonic creation because of her jealousy and regret.
Got me through a very boring Christmas service, that fic did. I'm expecting to see it on Supernatural any day now.
Well, the strongest form of predestination is specifically Calvinist; Lutherans and Reformed churches have a weaker form of predestination. The Calvinist form is more logically rigorous, but morally abhorrent.
Oh yes. Mary was created without original sin as the ideal and intended vessel for the Son of God, but she was not forced into the job. She was merely created with the right tools to do it and then asked if she would consent to God's will.
So, at least, is the Anglican teaching I grew up with. ^_^
That's actually the Roman Catholic line (this is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). Most Anglicans, including many Anglo-Catholics, think that if you argue that Mary had to be free from original sin in order to conceive Christ, then it's defeating the point of the Incarnation, in which humanity was redeemed by God taking on and purifying our fallen nature.
But yes, the point that Mary said 'yes' is why she's pointed out as the paradigm of the Christian life - the willingness to say a whole-hearted yes to God's call, even when it involves something implausible which is going to get you into an awful lot of trouble with your family and community...
did someone mention the Roman Catholic line? :-bjade_sabre_301August 15 2009, 05:56:43 UTC
but then, like, the whole reason she ends up free from original sin is because of Christ, just much faster than the rest of us--like, I need you to have Jesus, so you're free from original sin, BUT if Jesus wasn't coming then you wouldn't be free from original sin (and then you can wander into the interesting ground of "is it like a retroactive always-been-there-but-happened-when-you-said-yes-except-was-always-there thing?"). So he's still doing it.
Mary tends to get a head start on a lot of things, being a paradigm and all. "Oh, on the Last Day, y'all'll all be assumed into heaven with your shiny shiny new bodies, BUT SINCE MARY WAS SO AWESOME AND PERFECT AND ALL we'll just assume her up RIGHT NOW and you can look to her as a hopeful sign of what you get."
Oh Mariology. How you are sometimes better left to those with a lot of time on their hands. XD
Re: did someone mention the Roman Catholic line? :-btree_and_leafAugust 15 2009, 09:21:38 UTC
So he's still doing it.
Well, yes.
Oh Mariology. How you are sometimes better left to those with a lot of time on their hands.
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is the sort of thing which tends to leave me clutching my head and muttering, to quote Captain Janeway, "I hate temporal paradoxes!"
Yep. And I use that fact whenever I end up in a conversation with someone who's anti-choice. The looks I get when I bring that up are PRICELESS, I tell you.
According to the bible, she was a willing participant.
"34Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, seeing I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God. 36Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For everything spoken by God is possible.” 38Mary said, “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to your word.” The angel departed from her." Luke Chapter 1, verse 34-37
Emphasis mine, natch.
So, she agreed to it, which means she chose to participate. If I recall correctly from the single religion class I took in college a few years back, most modern theologians interpret that line as Mary choosing to willingly participate, rather than simply consenting to something she had no control over.
But hey, I'm not even a Christian, so it's all fairy tales to me. *shrug*
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Got me through a very boring Christmas service, that fic did. I'm expecting to see it on Supernatural any day now.
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So, at least, is the Anglican teaching I grew up with. ^_^
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That's actually the Roman Catholic line (this is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). Most Anglicans, including many Anglo-Catholics, think that if you argue that Mary had to be free from original sin in order to conceive Christ, then it's defeating the point of the Incarnation, in which humanity was redeemed by God taking on and purifying our fallen nature.
But yes, the point that Mary said 'yes' is why she's pointed out as the paradigm of the Christian life - the willingness to say a whole-hearted yes to God's call, even when it involves something implausible which is going to get you into an awful lot of trouble with your family and community...
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Mary tends to get a head start on a lot of things, being a paradigm and all. "Oh, on the Last Day, y'all'll all be assumed into heaven with your shiny shiny new bodies, BUT SINCE MARY WAS SO AWESOME AND PERFECT AND ALL we'll just assume her up RIGHT NOW and you can look to her as a hopeful sign of what you get."
Oh Mariology. How you are sometimes better left to those with a lot of time on their hands. XD
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Well, yes.
Oh Mariology. How you are sometimes better left to those with a lot of time on their hands.
I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it is the sort of thing which tends to leave me clutching my head and muttering, to quote Captain Janeway, "I hate temporal paradoxes!"
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It took me a few runs at that phrase before I came up with the Virgin Mary, and not a mushroom-eating plumber.
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"34Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, seeing I am a virgin?” 35The angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one who is born from you will be called the Son of God. 36Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For everything spoken by God is possible.” 38Mary said, “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to your word.” The angel departed from her." Luke Chapter 1, verse 34-37
Emphasis mine, natch.
So, she agreed to it, which means she chose to participate. If I recall correctly from the single religion class I took in college a few years back, most modern theologians interpret that line as Mary choosing to willingly participate, rather than simply consenting to something she had no control over.
But hey, I'm not even a Christian, so it's all fairy tales to me. *shrug*
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