Brief thoughts on 6.08

Nov 13, 2010 21:48



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spn s6

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elliemurasaki November 14 2010, 05:59:10 UTC
I think Dean can't stop thinking about Sam being in hell. He isn't taking the chances RoboSam's willing to take in order to get Sam out because he knows Sam wouldn't be okay with that, and he doesn't particularly give a shit what RoboSam thinks because RoboSam isn't Sam.

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metamorphagi November 14 2010, 06:15:24 UTC
The problem I have with that theory is that it is, ironically, RoboSam who's doing the most to get his soul back. Dean's fighting Crowley tooth and nail which, yes, I understand he doesn't want to work with a demon, but Crowley's really the only person who knows how to put Sam's soul back in his body. I don't think Dean's quite grasped the concept that sometimes the ends justify the means. RoboSam may not be the Sam we've known for the last five years, but at least he's trying to get that Sam back.

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elliemurasaki November 14 2010, 06:22:36 UTC
Or Dean knows perfectly well that sometimes the ends justify the means and has concluded that this isn't one of those times. Or Dean's remembering that there's a reason Sam made him promise not to try to get Sam back. Or it's occurred to Dean that maybe Crowley's bluffing.

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metamorphagi November 14 2010, 06:26:47 UTC
So Dean thinks it's better to leave Sam's soul rotting in Hell then? Or he has some massive Plan B worked out? Sam had Dean make him a promise, yes, but it's not like that worked out well. And even if Crowley is bluffing, it's a hell of a risk for Dean to take. Or, say Crowley is bluffing, the only possibilities then for Sam's soul are a) he's still down in the Cage, Crowley or no Crowley, or b) his soul is gone completely. At this point, Crowley's their only hope for getting Sam's soul back, and by alienating him, it's just making everything worse.

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elliemurasaki November 14 2010, 06:36:26 UTC
I think Dean thinks it's better for Sam to stay dead, because Dean was focusing on saving innocents rather than on saving Sam, than for innocents to get dead, or be monsterfied or whatever, because Dean was focusing on saving Sam rather than on saving innocents. And I think Dean hasn't forgotten that if he hadn't made a deal with a demon over Sam, or if Dean had stayed in hell, the apocalypse would not have happened. (Or not the way it did, though I'm not sure Dean remembers how determined the angels were to have the apocalypse happen and be centered on him and Sam.)

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metamorphagi November 14 2010, 06:39:50 UTC
Except Sam isn't dead. Not the real Sam, anyway. The Sam that's topside is just a shell. The real Sam is being tortured day in and day out. By Dean continuing to pretend he's not, he's just prolonging the real Sam's agony. Whether Dean's still ruminating on how he should've stayed in hell or whatever doesn't negate the fact that Sam's still down in Lucifer's cage and that Dean's not doing jack to get him out.

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elliemurasaki November 14 2010, 06:50:59 UTC
Okay, how are we defining dead? And no, it doesn't negate that, but it and a desire not to repeat previous mistakes does explain that.

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metamorphagi November 14 2010, 06:54:55 UTC
Two ways: Sam's physical body is alive and kicking, and Sam's soul's motor is still likewise running. Sam's soul may be in Hell, but it's still alive. Just like when Dean was there, he was still "alive," though in his case, his physical body was dead.

While Dean's going about his "desire not to repeat previous mistakes," he should probably realize that sometimes the undesirable answer is the only one, and they've made that mistake countless times. He might as well suck it up and work with Crowley until Sam's soul's back, and then they kill him (which, incidentally, is exactly what Sam said two episodes ago).

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elliemurasaki November 14 2010, 07:00:36 UTC
Souls don't seem to be destroyable, though. Some go to hell, some to purgatory, most to heaven, and while it's possible that the Colt and maybe a few other methods actually destroy souls, it seems more likely that they send the souls to purgatory instead. So by your definition, nobody's dead.

True enough, though that brings me straight back around to the possibility that Crowley's claiming custody of Sam's soul secure in the knowledge that nobody can prove he doesn't have it.

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metamorphagi November 14 2010, 07:19:38 UTC
Right, but the difference is that Sam is in Lucifer's cage, not in Heaven. Lucifer, even Michael, fine, they should be in the cage. But Sam (and Adam)? Not a chance.

At this point, what choice do they have? They could keep looking for "another way" till the cows come home (or, as in the case of S5, the solution they ended up with was the one they initially would never have taken), and it won't happen. Or, conversely, they could put up with working for a demon and not run the risk of Crowley getting pissed and doing away with Sam's soul. Is it a risk in and of itself? Of course. But it's kind of their only option.

Of course, since this is Supernatural, undoubtedly someone's going to fuck up, and all hell will break loose (figuratively).

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abrakadabrah November 14 2010, 11:41:34 UTC
At this point, Crowley's their only hope for getting Sam's soul back, and by alienating him, it's just making everything worse.That doesn't seem to have a whole lot to do with Crowley's MO. Bobby did absolutely nothing to alienate Crowley, and Crowley was just unwilling when push came to shove. It wasn't until his hand was forced by Bobby that he made Crowley follow through. And up against the cage, I can't imagine that Crowley's best efforts are going to do much. Just because he says he has that power, doesn't mean he does ( ... )

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metamorphagi November 14 2010, 19:29:01 UTC
I'm not saying playing ball with him will necessarily work, just that Crowley's really the only lead they've got. Maybe he has the power he says he does, maybe he doesn't, but completely shutting that door won't do Sam and Dean any favors.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make, whether he's working smarter or not. My point was that he is working harder, period. He clearly needs Dean as a moral conscience, but he seems to be the only done doing any work towards getting his soul back. Which is rather ironic.

I don't believe that Dean doesn't care about the real Sam. I simply believe that Dean's too blind-sighted by his own comfort issues with not-Sam to really grasp the situation that real Sam's in. He's too weirded out by not-Sam that he doesn't realize how fucked the real Sam is. As pertains to Lisa, it's not entirely Sam's fault; Dean chose to go with him. Sam let Dean be with Lisa for a year before reappearing, and even then the only reason he did was to save their lives. Sam's not the only one to blame here.

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