It's the way of the ending, really, isn't it? I thought they were going to end with the image of the two of them on the opposite sides of the wall, and then the Doctor walking away - and I was fine with that, even a little weepy. That was good. I liked that.
What really has me torn is the epilogue/goodbye. Billie acted her socks off in that (she always does), and I don't mind them having some touchback. And aesthetically, I like the idea that it's a fairy-tale world (complete with rose-tinted filters fercripessakes!) and Bad Wolf Bay; however emotionally, I would have preferred that we saw her going on with her life in a more proactive, adult, less "little-girl" way. We could have seen a montage of her at work - echoing how we met her, but in a much more grown-up, purposeful way - and maybe she gets a call on her phone, or a message rather than this voice in her dreams (or I wouldn't have minded if we got an intermingling of the two voices, as a subtle resonance). Maybe even an e-mailed message/goodbye. So again, I get the hologram parallel - although it is so much less powerful than it was in PoTW that it really shouldn't have been attempted again. I was crying at the end because Billie was crying - it was totally a sympathetic reaction, because part of me was cringing.
I think that's my overarching problem with S2. It felt like it undermined/dismantled many of the things I loved about S1. I kind of wish Rose had packed up and left after GitF, made it her decision, and closed off her relationship with the Doctor on a proactive fashion. I also really, really, really want Ten to get smacked for his smugness. Nine was occasionally brought up short by his weaknesses and mistakes (The Unquiet Dead, Dalek, BW/PoTW), but he faced it, owned up to it, dealt with it. Otherwise, he'd have been no better than Adam.
I think it would be nice to think there's another Doctor in the alt!verse, but maybe Rose needs to learn to move on, work for alt!Torchwood and let go. I don't know.
That was more of a fanfic idea than a "real one" ;-)
Still, a cool Christmas special, perhaps... If they could afford Billie and Chris now! Wouldn't that be ironic? I mean Chris is always expensive, but now Billie must be up there.
I did like the bride at the end because it cut down on the wallowing.
I thought they were going to end with the image of the two of them on the opposite sides of the wall
I would have been good with that. I thought that was really well done too. Although, I started to get weepy when the Doctor first saw the Daleks. I just wanted to give him a big fat hug.
What really has me torn is the epilogue/goodbye.
I think for people who aren't shippers, that's what has them torn as well. And even from a shipper POV (my own) I have problems with it. Although, to be perfectly honest, I loved that Rose said I love you and again, the Doctor didn't. I think that was perfect because it sort of makes everyone happy. The shippers get to feel that yeah, the Doctor was going to say I love you and the non-shippers get the idea that he was going to say "Rose Tyler, I like you" or something. So, I really liked that.
I was crying at the end because Billie was crying - it was totally a sympathetic reaction, because part of me was cringing.
God, I had tears running down my cheeks, it was really heartbreaking. But for some reason, the Doctor crying made me cringe. It was done well, but I just don't wanna see my Doctor crying (and I mean "my" in a general way, not that Ten is "my" Doctor).
I did like the bride at the end because it cut down on the wallowing.
Apparently some people didn't like it because of the actress, but I didn't know who it was so maybe that helped. But actually, with something like this, I totally welcome something like that to cut into my crying, it helps (personally). So the fact that I went from bawling like a baby to laughing my ass off, was perfect and it's also going to help the Doctor so that he's not moping about in the Christmas special. Because while I don't really know much about the history of the Doctor, I know that it's not in his nature to mourn a companion for too long.
Even with Nine, I never wanted to view Rose as special because that put her on a pedistal and I didn't like that because IMHO she always fell a little short. Don't get me wrong, I love Rose, even in her annoying moments because I still loved her then. But she wasn't this perfect person, or companion, when RTD once said that she was brave beyond anyone (or something to the effect that she was better than other companions, was how I saw it meant) I didn't like it. She was different because of the loss the Doctor just went through when he met her. I feel that's it.
I don't know if I'm expressing it right. I love Nine/Rose, and when done right, I love Ten/Rose (and I mean on the show), but I wasn't exactly crying buckets when it came out that Billie was leaving.
Did that sound heartless? Because I'm not meaning it too. Am I making sense? :)
Best bit? When the Doctor kissed Mickey. That? Was awesome. Forehead yeah, but it makes up for the almost!hug in GiTF.
I think only the most rabid Ten/Rose shippers (not even the ones who liked her with both Doctors) are happy with that ending. Once again, it seemed to cheapen/weaken the ending on either side of the wall.
Although, to be perfectly honest, I loved that Rose said I love you and again, the Doctor didn't. I think that was perfect because it sort of makes everyone happy. The shippers get to feel that yeah, the Doctor was going to say I love you and the non-shippers get the idea that he was going to say "Rose Tyler, I like you" or something. So, I really liked that.
I've suddenly had this vision of Rose on that beach putting a message into a fire or something and just hoping it might reach him, but it would be unnecessary because they both know. It was just TOO MUCH. At least for them the way they were this year.
But for some reason, the Doctor crying made me cringe. It was done well, but I just don't wanna see my Doctor crying (and I mean "my" in a general way, not that Ten is "my" Doctor).
Yeah, I was kind of cringing at that, too. I think we go back to the "did they earn it" question, and I can't help it, Ten just doesn't earn emotional depth for me, even when I'd like him to. He's totally on the surface as an actor.
Nine cried - he even cried at thinking that Rose died (tears in his eyes in Dalek). But he had a kind of core strength that made it feel as if it were dragged up from the depths of him and he was just not quite able to keep it back. In BW, he just shut down. No tears. Just gone.
Apparently some people didn't like it because of the actress, but I didn't know who it was so maybe that helped.
Same here.
But actually, with something like this, I totally welcome something like that to cut into my crying, it helps (personally).
Yeah, I agree. Especially given the cringing...
Even with Nine, I never wanted to view Rose as special because that put her on a pedestal and I didn't like that because IMHO she always fell a little short.
I agree, and I don't think he really did, the way some people think. I know he used a superlative ("I only take the best"), but I never got the feeling he meant the bestest ever, ever, in all the universe and time, but more that she meets certain criteria.
She was different because of the loss the Doctor just went through when he met her. I feel that's it.
I think that's part of it, but also going on from the above idea, I don't think that Nine ever really thought, "Oh, she's my soulmate" - that was fan projection. Did he love her? Absolutely. Did she help him get back in touch with life? Absolutely. And I wouldn't have thought that even in a best case scenario, one in which Rose and the Doctor (whichever one) had been together until the end of Rose's life, it would have been a betrayal if he took up with a new companion and loved him/her as much (or had loved other companions just as much in their time), that it would cheapen what they had. I have three people whom I consider my "best friend". I don't love one of them more than the others; depending on the situation, I might talk to one or the other of them about a particular situation first, because it would make the most sense given our relationship or his/her experience. But they're all equally "best".
I guess I don't see the Doctor loving other companions any differently than, say, if he had been widowed and found someone else to love. Better? Worse? No, different.
I love Nine/Rose, and when done right, I love Ten/Rose (and I mean on the show),
I love Nine/Rose, as you know - in just about any form because it just works for me on a number of different levels; I've liked Ten/Rose fiction more than I've liked them on the show - although usually thinking, "Meanwhile, I don't see this on the show at all, so I'm not sure how I feel about this as fanfic..."
but I wasn't exactly crying buckets when it came out that Billie was leaving.
Did that sound heartless?
No. Not at all. I actually felt relieved, myself. Since I've felt that this series/season was mangling Rose, I wanted to put her out of its misery. BUT I was hoping for better for her goodbye.
Awesome icon BTW!
Thanks! There are a bunch of fun variations on this.
And that was completely earned. Because 1) it was Rose and 2) he was RIGHT THERE. One more step and she would have been in his arms, so it's that extra punch to the gut for him
I know he used a superlative ("I only take the best"), but I never got the feeling he meant the bestest ever, ever, in all the universe and time, but more that she meets certain criteria.
See, I know people probably jumped on that statement, thinking, "Wow, Rose is the best ever" but I always read it as, "I take the best, right now, I have Rose", so I agree with you.
"Oh, she's my soulmate"
OMG, as much as I adore Doctor/Rose, it will never compare to the rant I have about the soulmate thing. Even before knowing the history of the show I had a problem with it, and it wasn't just the fans saying it, wasn't it somebody behind the show that first said it? Maybe it's something personal, but even as a shipper I have objections towards that.
See, for me, it's like, did the Doctor love Rose? Absolutely. Was he in love with her? Maybe. Did he care about her? Hell yes. He always wanted to protect her, but the Doctor has a history of protecting his companions, so it's a common trait. I think the problem is, RTD fell in love with his character of Rose, and that tainted her. I had the same problem with Battlestar Galactica, the creator was in love with one of the characters he was writing and was a complete letdown on other characters. But then I wonder, did RTD plan on keeping Rose for another season? And if he did, did that maybe rush her departure? I don't know what I'm talking about anymore...sorry. I was trying to make a point, and I think it was...this season was uneven and it hurt the story telling too much.
I think MY biggest problem of the season was that I didn't have much fun. They can say all they want that the show's for children and families, but I don't see how they can have any fun with the show. I've liked all the episodes, but the last episode I really had fun with was "School Reunion", and there's been better stories than that (although it pains me a little to say because I still adore that episode) like TIP/TSP and even AoG, oh I lied, I had a hell of a lot of fun with that episode. But still.
Did I just go off in a tangent? Wow, talk about a ramble.
I've liked Ten/Rose fiction more than I've liked them on the show
If the fic is well-written, I've definitely enjoyed it. For me, I enjoy Ten/Rose in the show the first time I watch the episode, on repeat, I see the problems. Like "New Earth", it was so cute the first time I watched it and I was excited until I thought about it and was like, wait, that doesn't fit. I think the relationship was written really well in "Fear Her", until the end when Rose stuck her foot in her mouth and earned that earlier gut-puncher "I was a dad once".
Since I've felt that this series/season was mangling Rose, I wanted to put her out of its misery. BUT I was hoping for better for her goodbye.
One more step and she would have been in his arms, so it's that extra punch to the gut for him
And us. They're reaching out for each other and, wham, she's dust and he's on his knees. And bless Jack, so protective, "Don't you touch him. Don't you dare touch him!" I think that's the moment I started to really love Jack, not just find him amusing.
I think the problem is, RTD fell in love with his character of Rose, and that tainted her. I had the same problem with Battlestar Galactica, the creator was in love with one of the characters he was writing and was a complete letdown on other characters.
Which one was that? I watch the show, but I haven't gotten into the fandom or backstage stuff.
But then I wonder, did RTD plan on keeping Rose for another season? And if he did, did that maybe rush her departure?
Evidently, he knew from the beginning of the series (as he did with CE in S1) that she was leaving. I can see on paper why he thought this was a good ending, but the way it undermined all her S1 growth just made it feel...off.
I think MY biggest problem of the season was that I didn't have much fun.
I can sympathize with that. Some of it was that I felt on tenterhooks even on some of the better episodes, afraid it was about to all fall apart at any moment because it was so unevenly written.
Although there were bits of SR I loved (I do think it was the warmest/most emotional episode of the year), I liked The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit best of all. And yet it could have been a stand-alone movie; I don't think that Rose and the Doctor were distinctively "Rose" and "Doctor"-ish enough to really matter. And they really did have excellent actors in that episode. Poor Scooti. RIP Toby. Jefferson ::sniff:: I cared about them. Ida rocked. RTD seems better at more mature women than young ones! All the 40-somethings: Ida, Jackie (who had a great moment in Love & Monsters), Mrs. Moore, Harriet (until he assassinated her ::hates::).
Random question: why do people hate Pete? I don't get it. I don't like alt!Pete very much, but real!Pete was lovely. I get why Jackie was charmed by him, with all his faults. And he was bright enough and brave enough to do the right thing - you totally got him as Rose's Daddy.
For me, I enjoy Ten/Rose in the show the first time I watch the episode, on repeat, I see the problems.
What has amazed me is that my love for S1 doesn't dim at all. I still get choked up at the same places, I still love the performances, and I often find that the plots hold up better for me on repeated viewings (The Long Game). Even when there were plot holes (Boom Town, I'm looking at you), there was such charm and warmth in the performances. I hated the Slitheen, and I'm not fond of the plot, but I do love watching CE and Annette Badland work. And I always zip back and re-watch that moment with the model, when the Doctor grabs it, scattering all the bits, and he and Jack geek out over the "surfboard". They're such blokes right there!
And: "She's climbing out the window, isn't she?"
::snorfle::
I think the relationship was written really well in "Fear Her",
I agree. The one genuine spark I felt all season was the "Are you deducting?"/"I think I am" exchange. Although the marmalade thing was ridiculous, it was well-played.
until the end when Rose stuck her foot in her mouth and earned that earlier gut-puncher "I was a dad once".
This season, I just haven't been sure whether those clunkers were intentional or not. Last year, when there were slips or hurtful things said, it seemed easier to realize those things were meant to be there. Everything was more subtle and didn't have to be spelled out. Two great examples:
Father's Day: The Doctor saying that he had no clue how to get out of the situation - very convincingly; yet it's clear that he knows Pete has to die.
The Empty Child: Dr. Constantine says, "I used to be a father and a grandfather," and the Doctor says, almost to himself, "I know the feeling."
Which one was that? I watch the show, but I haven't gotten into the fandom or backstage stuff.
Kara/Starbuck is loved beyond words apparently, and for one, I don't share the love sentiment and they seem to work harder on her stories and fail with my favorite, Lee/Apollo.
I liked The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit best of all.
They were very good, and yeah, given time they might take the place of SR. The new characters were love in those episodes, they were so real and I thought I was going to cry when the Doctor left Ida alone and Jefferson was going to be killed. Poor Toby, he died a virgin.
Random question: why do people hate Pete?
I don't know, because I really liked real!Pete. The alt!Pete was a little grating, and I really love that they made them with that difference. But for me, I don't understand why people didn't like Pete/Jackie in the finale. They both were hesitate because they were't really each other's spouses. And Jackie had no problem screaming at him for leaving Rose behind and him reminding her that it wasn't his daughter. It seemed very constant that they knew they weren't really who they looked like, but they couldn't seem to get over that and still just wanted to be together. Maybe it's the baby thing, although, the ending with the goodbye to the Doctor seems like it might have been a while since they were separated (on Rose's side).
What has amazed me is that my love for S1 doesn't dim at all.
Mine doesn't dim, it freakin' GROWS! I just love it, and while I have my gripes with "Boom Town", CE was frickin' ON as the Doctor and Jack was hot and flirting with the Doctor, not so much with Rose, which I find amusing.
The one genuine spark I felt all season was the "Are you deducting?"/"I think I am" exchange.
He said that, and I was like, "The hell? They going to start making out now?" He just seemed to REALLY like the thought that she was deducting.
I sorta liked the marmalade moment, it was just random and really emphasized that he's such a kid. Or maybe DT just likes sticking his fingers in his mouth, which he's been known to do. Um, yeah.
Everything was more subtle and didn't have to be spelled out.
See, I thought so as well. The only cluckers I remember from the top of my head from season one was "I could save the world but lose you" and "What use are emotions when you cannot save the woman you love" or whatever, which is excused because the Doctor barely reacts to that, he was going to open the door anyway, like he said, he wasn't going to kill her again.
The Empty Child: Dr. Constantine says, "I used to be a father and a grandfather," and the Doctor says, almost to himself, "I know the feeling."
God, I just keep finding more and more that makes me fall in love with this particular episode more and more.
BSG: I suspected you meant Starbuck. I do like her; and I understand your feeling Lee gets neglected, because I find him the least well-drawn of the central characters. He's hardly there. I'll admit, I really love the older characters (Adama, Roslin, Tigh) and the Baltar/Six combination; I also think Boomer has been a fascinating performance. So there's not a lot of room in that cast for leads, they have so many! (To be fair, Apollo was my least favourite in the original series, too, because I don't seem to go for the straight-up hero-types!)
As for Jackie and alt!Pete, I think that Camille Coduri and Shaun Dingwall did a great job with that. I didn't begrudge their time in the spotlight (even if I thought the ending was a little pat and had seen it coming for 6 episodes!), and I liked the fact that they acknowledged that they were different people from the ones they had fallen in love with.
Mine doesn't dim, it freakin' GROWS!
I know. That's one of the reasons that a big, big part of me wishes they had just STOPPED at the end of series one. Have it be a one-off mini-series (or give more time and do them every once in a while - and oh, while they're at it, stop working CE into the ground; you can see how much he puts into things, I'm not exactly surprised he was falling apart by the end.
while I have my gripes with "Boom Town", CE was frickin' ON as the Doctor and Jack was hot and flirting with the Doctor, not so much with Rose, which I find amusing.
I always got the feeling that Jack's seduction of Rose was all part of the con, and although he ended up loving her like a good friend (one he wouldn't mind being "with benefits"), the one he really loved and fancied was the Doctor. I don't know how much of that is writing, and how much John Barrowman's performance - as a gay man, he may well have just sparked that way. But when he talks about CE in the Confidentials, etc., his ears get pink! I think he had a little crush... Awwwww.
He said that, and I was like, "The hell? They going to start making out now?" He just seemed to REALLY like the thought that she was deducting.
That was my favourite moment between them ALL SERIES! It was just a fleeting thing. I think one of the keys is that they slowed down for a minute. It still wasn't a patch on that conversation at the beginning of The Unquiet Dead (the one that has the "better with two" line). I thought Rose was going to grab him by the front of his jumper and slam him up against the console; and he would have just laughed and rolled with it.
Re: The season 1 clunkers - I agree from a writing standpoint BUT I think the actors sold it. Which is some trick.
God, I just keep finding more and more that makes me fall in love with this particular episode more and more.
I love TEC/TDD. But I also like that they form a peak - that unlike TIP/TSP, the Doctor and Rose are central to what makes it great, and it's all been led up to. I love their little conversation at the beginning, when he stops screwdrivering the lock and just looks up at her with a little squint, "Are you sure about that T-shirt?" and she says, "'m not sure yet. I'm takin' it out for a spin." It's cute, but there's subtext and warmth and fun there that's directed between them, rather than at us.
Sigh.
Thirteen fantastic episodes (or, well, 10 fantastic, and 3 more that are important stepping stones!)
*thud* I'm sorry, your icon just killed me dead. ;)
I have much love for Apollo, have since I first saw the new series, when I started with, I think it was the fourth episode of the season. BSG had the same problem, IMHO, that DW just had, the first season was much better than the second.
But when he talks about CE in the Confidentials, etc., his ears get pink! I think he had a little crush... Awwwww.
John was absolutely adorable in the Condidentials when he talked about CE and Doctor/Rose.
when he stops screwdrivering the lock and just looks up at her with a little squint, "Are you sure about that T-shirt?" and she says, "'m not sure yet. I'm takin' it out for a spin."
That was a really good moment, because they didn't JUST flirt, they teased each other and it wasn't always in the most romantic way, which is why I loved their relationship, because it really was ambiguous. Anyone could read it in any way. Friends, lovers, friends with benefits, it didn't matter because the Doctor and Rose didn't care, they were traveling together, they were happy, they cared about each other, they didn't need to define it. Guh, now I have to watch season one again. I have all the episodes except AoL/WW3, which I really don't mind not having. I actually think they're (Rose and the Doctor) a little off in those episodes, but it may just be that they aren't the best episodes.
I just watched the end of "Doomsday", just the second time, and it wasn't as bad as the first time. Her exit was sad, for sure, but it wasn't that bad. I cried again, but then I noticed. When she's pounding on the way, it's like when she was pleading with the TARDIS to take her back (in PotW), but when she's done, she turns around and sort of holds her head up to walk back to Jackie, Mickey and Pete (and I loved when they showed Jackie taking both of the men's hands. Beautiful little touch). And I understand the goodbye on the beach now, him showing up opened the wound that wasn't healed, made it bleed, and make it possible to heal. That's weird, I won't repeat that. I just mean, she never wanted to say goodbye, and of course it would be hard on her, and she's very sensitive when thinking of not being with the Doctor forever, but now I totally DON'T see the suicide angle. I understand the feelings now, I just wish that didn't have to be the last time we saw Rose Tyler (for now). Even the BBC site has it down as an unhappy ending. How is that fair RTD?
*thud* I'm sorry, your icon just killed me dead. ;)
Although that one is great, this is the one which has an effect all out of reasonable proportion....
they didn't JUST flirt, they teased each other and it wasn't always in the most romantic way, which is why I loved their relationship, because it really was ambiguous. Anyone could read it in any way. Friends, lovers, friends with benefits, it didn't matter because the Doctor and Rose didn't care, they were traveling together, they were happy, they cared about each other, they didn't need to define it.
Exactly. It's an all-encompassing relationship - which is why I think sex between them would be more about passion, fun, and love than romance, if you get what I mean. Therefore, it seems to me greater than lesser. Part of a greater whole.
re: AoL/WWIII: I think the problem there was largely the director. This was the one that CE blew up on, and having seen the result, I don't blame him. It's played too broadly on the whole. But then there are so many moments/characters I love, I still like it better than most of S2. Actually, I do love it more; I just don't like it more :-)
When she's pounding on the way, it's like when she was pleading with the TARDIS to take her back (in PotW), but when she's done, she turns around and sort of holds her head up to walk back to Jackie, Mickey and Pete
I did like that. It shows a little growth.
I never got hysterical/suicidal, and I get that they told us about her more proactive life, we just didn't see it, which is bad drama. However, consistent with a lot of S2.
If I can get some other things off my desk, I'm still tempted to do the rest of S1 in picture posts. No one will care but me, but I enjoy doing it!
Although that one is great, this is the one which has an effect all out of reasonable proportion....
Guh..I'm sorry, are there such a thing as words for that? I could just stare at that.
which is why I think sex between them would be more about passion, fun, and love than romance, if you get what I mean.
Yes! Besides, I really don't think the Doctor knows romance, he's a bit too oblivious to that, bless him.
This was the one that CE blew up on, and having seen the result, I don't blame him.
Really, that's interesting. I don't know any of the behind-the-scenes stuff, I feel like I'm missing something.
I never got hysterical/suicidal
I didn't think she was suicidal, but I could see where people were coming from with that angle, now I don't.
If I can get some other things off my desk, I'm still tempted to do the rest of S1 in picture posts. No one will care but me, but I enjoy doing it!
That reminds me! I have to finish season 1 as well, my Doctor/Rose posts, I have BT, BW and PotW still. I'd love to see yours though! It'll be a lot easier now that I can make my own screencaps!
Guh..I'm sorry, are there such a thing as words for that? I could just stare at that.
It really shouldn't be as...compelling as it is, should it? Let's all just take a moment and stare.
Makes you want to grow fangs, doesn't it?
I admit, I have a thing for throats. For a short, chubby guy, David Krumholtz has a great throat (see icon).
I was just over at the BBC bulletin boards, and I really shouldn't, you know? I really do not get how people say, "Wow, S2 was so much better written than S1."
And this cracks me up: the argument that Rose + 9 is creepy because a 900+ age gap is too much. But Rose + 10 is fine?! He's older! You ageist hypocrites (and very dumb at math, too). There's someone at TWOP who occasionally pops up with the same argument, and even funnier she said "CE is 15 years older than BP - yuck." Well, as it happens DT is 13 years older, so... what? Her actual argument was that it was "grody" and that she knew some people in real life who had that kind of age gap and that was "grody" too. This is a married woman, apparently. Who speaks like a 10-year-old.
But seriously. If you don't find CE attractive? Fine. He's an acquired taste, thought very rewarding. But to make that kind of age argument? just laughable, really.
Yes! Besides, I really don't think the Doctor knows romance, he's a bit too oblivious to that, bless him.
But he's having such fun! I actually think Ten might do it more because he likes playing games more, but Nine is so no-nonsense, I think he'd be more likely to do something totally unexpected and sweet, like having chips at Woman Wept or something. Better than candlelight and roses any day.
Re: CE blowing up at Keith Boak, I've only heard rumors (mostly people who saw them arguing during the shoot), but CE is notorious for pushing writers and directors to make things better. I know that on at least two occasions, the people in question admitted that he was right, and that they did make it better. Given the quality of his output, you've got to give him some credit.
I didn't think she was suicidal, but I could see where people were coming from with that angle, now I don't.
I think there were a lot of very invested fangirls! :-) I was very invested in POTW - could barely breathe; I cried here, but mostly a few quiet tears at the end because Billie was so good at crying.
I'm hoping to do a "Rose" pic post this weekend. I've got a project I have to finish, and that can be my "carrot".
I admit, I have a thing for throats. For a short, chubby guy, David Krumholtz has a great throat (see icon).
Thank you, 'cause I do too now.
There's someone at TWOP who occasionally pops up with the same argument, and even funnier she said "CE is 15 years older than BP - yuck."
Oh lord. There are worse age differences in movies. Star Wars? Harrison Ford was at least 20 years older than Carrie Fisher. King Arthur? Again, 20 year age difference between love interests. Nobody cries foul with movies. I think what really calls attention is that DT really looks young for his age, and sometimes CE could look his age, I'll admit it, even though when he does he still looks hot IMO.
the argument that Rose + 9 is creepy because a 900+ age gap is too much. But Rose + 10 is fine?!
See, even though I love Doctor/Rose, I still get a bit out of whack when I really think about it. That's why I don't think about it, that's why his age isn't called to attention so often, so that the writers can get away with a romance and not get called on it. 900 years old, 19 years old, I can see why people don't like the romance. Which is why season one worked for me, because you really didn't have to see it as a romance. Maybe that's why I'm so disappointed with season 2, with a younger actor, well, younger looking actor, they think it's better to push the romance. That really bothers me.
Better than candlelight and roses any day.
I don't think the Doctor would even have the capability to think of candlelight and roses. But I think if any romantic gestures came about, it would be purely incidental.
I cried here, but mostly a few quiet tears at the end because Billie was so good at crying.
When I watched the ending again, I cried hard. It was truly heartbreaking. But as much as seeing the Doctor crying makes me cringe, DT rocked in the beach scene. He was amazing there, I wanted to give them both a hug.
What really has me torn is the epilogue/goodbye. Billie acted her socks off in that (she always does), and I don't mind them having some touchback. And aesthetically, I like the idea that it's a fairy-tale world (complete with rose-tinted filters fercripessakes!) and Bad Wolf Bay; however emotionally, I would have preferred that we saw her going on with her life in a more proactive, adult, less "little-girl" way. We could have seen a montage of her at work - echoing how we met her, but in a much more grown-up, purposeful way - and maybe she gets a call on her phone, or a message rather than this voice in her dreams (or I wouldn't have minded if we got an intermingling of the two voices, as a subtle resonance). Maybe even an e-mailed message/goodbye. So again, I get the hologram parallel - although it is so much less powerful than it was in PoTW that it really shouldn't have been attempted again. I was crying at the end because Billie was crying - it was totally a sympathetic reaction, because part of me was cringing.
I think that's my overarching problem with S2. It felt like it undermined/dismantled many of the things I loved about S1. I kind of wish Rose had packed up and left after GitF, made it her decision, and closed off her relationship with the Doctor on a proactive fashion. I also really, really, really want Ten to get smacked for his smugness. Nine was occasionally brought up short by his weaknesses and mistakes (The Unquiet Dead, Dalek, BW/PoTW), but he faced it, owned up to it, dealt with it. Otherwise, he'd have been no better than Adam.
I think it would be nice to think there's another Doctor in the alt!verse, but maybe Rose needs to learn to move on, work for alt!Torchwood and let go. I don't know.
That was more of a fanfic idea than a "real one" ;-)
Still, a cool Christmas special, perhaps... If they could afford Billie and Chris now! Wouldn't that be ironic? I mean Chris is always expensive, but now Billie must be up there.
I did like the bride at the end because it cut down on the wallowing.
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I would have been good with that. I thought that was really well done too. Although, I started to get weepy when the Doctor first saw the Daleks. I just wanted to give him a big fat hug.
What really has me torn is the epilogue/goodbye.
I think for people who aren't shippers, that's what has them torn as well. And even from a shipper POV (my own) I have problems with it. Although, to be perfectly honest, I loved that Rose said I love you and again, the Doctor didn't. I think that was perfect because it sort of makes everyone happy. The shippers get to feel that yeah, the Doctor was going to say I love you and the non-shippers get the idea that he was going to say "Rose Tyler, I like you" or something. So, I really liked that.
I was crying at the end because Billie was crying - it was totally a sympathetic reaction, because part of me was cringing.
God, I had tears running down my cheeks, it was really heartbreaking. But for some reason, the Doctor crying made me cringe. It was done well, but I just don't wanna see my Doctor crying (and I mean "my" in a general way, not that Ten is "my" Doctor).
I did like the bride at the end because it cut down on the wallowing.
Apparently some people didn't like it because of the actress, but I didn't know who it was so maybe that helped. But actually, with something like this, I totally welcome something like that to cut into my crying, it helps (personally). So the fact that I went from bawling like a baby to laughing my ass off, was perfect and it's also going to help the Doctor so that he's not moping about in the Christmas special. Because while I don't really know much about the history of the Doctor, I know that it's not in his nature to mourn a companion for too long.
Even with Nine, I never wanted to view Rose as special because that put her on a pedistal and I didn't like that because IMHO she always fell a little short. Don't get me wrong, I love Rose, even in her annoying moments because I still loved her then. But she wasn't this perfect person, or companion, when RTD once said that she was brave beyond anyone (or something to the effect that she was better than other companions, was how I saw it meant) I didn't like it. She was different because of the loss the Doctor just went through when he met her. I feel that's it.
I don't know if I'm expressing it right. I love Nine/Rose, and when done right, I love Ten/Rose (and I mean on the show), but I wasn't exactly crying buckets when it came out that Billie was leaving.
Did that sound heartless? Because I'm not meaning it too. Am I making sense? :)
Best bit? When the Doctor kissed Mickey. That? Was awesome. Forehead yeah, but it makes up for the almost!hug in GiTF.
Awesome icon BTW!
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Although, to be perfectly honest, I loved that Rose said I love you and again, the Doctor didn't. I think that was perfect because it sort of makes everyone happy. The shippers get to feel that yeah, the Doctor was going to say I love you and the non-shippers get the idea that he was going to say "Rose Tyler, I like you" or something. So, I really liked that.
I've suddenly had this vision of Rose on that beach putting a message into a fire or something and just hoping it might reach him, but it would be unnecessary because they both know. It was just TOO MUCH. At least for them the way they were this year.
But for some reason, the Doctor crying made me cringe. It was done well, but I just don't wanna see my Doctor crying (and I mean "my" in a general way, not that Ten is "my" Doctor).
Yeah, I was kind of cringing at that, too. I think we go back to the "did they earn it" question, and I can't help it, Ten just doesn't earn emotional depth for me, even when I'd like him to. He's totally on the surface as an actor.
Nine cried - he even cried at thinking that Rose died (tears in his eyes in Dalek). But he had a kind of core strength that made it feel as if it were dragged up from the depths of him and he was just not quite able to keep it back. In BW, he just shut down. No tears. Just gone.
Apparently some people didn't like it because of the actress, but I didn't know who it was so maybe that helped.
Same here.
But actually, with something like this, I totally welcome something like that to cut into my crying, it helps (personally).
Yeah, I agree. Especially given the cringing...
Even with Nine, I never wanted to view Rose as special because that put her on a pedestal and I didn't like that because IMHO she always fell a little short.
I agree, and I don't think he really did, the way some people think. I know he used a superlative ("I only take the best"), but I never got the feeling he meant the bestest ever, ever, in all the universe and time, but more that she meets certain criteria.
She was different because of the loss the Doctor just went through when he met her. I feel that's it.
I think that's part of it, but also going on from the above idea, I don't think that Nine ever really thought, "Oh, she's my soulmate" - that was fan projection. Did he love her? Absolutely. Did she help him get back in touch with life? Absolutely. And I wouldn't have thought that even in a best case scenario, one in which Rose and the Doctor (whichever one) had been together until the end of Rose's life, it would have been a betrayal if he took up with a new companion and loved him/her as much (or had loved other companions just as much in their time), that it would cheapen what they had. I have three people whom I consider my "best friend". I don't love one of them more than the others; depending on the situation, I might talk to one or the other of them about a particular situation first, because it would make the most sense given our relationship or his/her experience. But they're all equally "best".
I guess I don't see the Doctor loving other companions any differently than, say, if he had been widowed and found someone else to love. Better? Worse? No, different.
I love Nine/Rose, and when done right, I love Ten/Rose (and I mean on the show),
I love Nine/Rose, as you know - in just about any form because it just works for me on a number of different levels; I've liked Ten/Rose fiction more than I've liked them on the show - although usually thinking, "Meanwhile, I don't see this on the show at all, so I'm not sure how I feel about this as fanfic..."
but I wasn't exactly crying buckets when it came out that Billie was leaving.
Did that sound heartless?
No. Not at all. I actually felt relieved, myself. Since I've felt that this series/season was mangling Rose, I wanted to put her out of its misery. BUT I was hoping for better for her goodbye.
Awesome icon BTW!
Thanks! There are a bunch of fun variations on this.
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And that was completely earned. Because 1) it was Rose and 2) he was RIGHT THERE. One more step and she would have been in his arms, so it's that extra punch to the gut for him
I know he used a superlative ("I only take the best"), but I never got the feeling he meant the bestest ever, ever, in all the universe and time, but more that she meets certain criteria.
See, I know people probably jumped on that statement, thinking, "Wow, Rose is the best ever" but I always read it as, "I take the best, right now, I have Rose", so I agree with you.
"Oh, she's my soulmate"
OMG, as much as I adore Doctor/Rose, it will never compare to the rant I have about the soulmate thing. Even before knowing the history of the show I had a problem with it, and it wasn't just the fans saying it, wasn't it somebody behind the show that first said it? Maybe it's something personal, but even as a shipper I have objections towards that.
See, for me, it's like, did the Doctor love Rose? Absolutely. Was he in love with her? Maybe. Did he care about her? Hell yes. He always wanted to protect her, but the Doctor has a history of protecting his companions, so it's a common trait. I think the problem is, RTD fell in love with his character of Rose, and that tainted her. I had the same problem with Battlestar Galactica, the creator was in love with one of the characters he was writing and was a complete letdown on other characters. But then I wonder, did RTD plan on keeping Rose for another season? And if he did, did that maybe rush her departure? I don't know what I'm talking about anymore...sorry. I was trying to make a point, and I think it was...this season was uneven and it hurt the story telling too much.
I think MY biggest problem of the season was that I didn't have much fun. They can say all they want that the show's for children and families, but I don't see how they can have any fun with the show. I've liked all the episodes, but the last episode I really had fun with was "School Reunion", and there's been better stories than that (although it pains me a little to say because I still adore that episode) like TIP/TSP and even AoG, oh I lied, I had a hell of a lot of fun with that episode. But still.
Did I just go off in a tangent? Wow, talk about a ramble.
I've liked Ten/Rose fiction more than I've liked them on the show
If the fic is well-written, I've definitely enjoyed it. For me, I enjoy Ten/Rose in the show the first time I watch the episode, on repeat, I see the problems. Like "New Earth", it was so cute the first time I watched it and I was excited until I thought about it and was like, wait, that doesn't fit. I think the relationship was written really well in "Fear Her", until the end when Rose stuck her foot in her mouth and earned that earlier gut-puncher "I was a dad once".
Since I've felt that this series/season was mangling Rose, I wanted to put her out of its misery. BUT I was hoping for better for her goodbye.
Yeah, me too.
Now that icon is genius!
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And us. They're reaching out for each other and, wham, she's dust and he's on his knees. And bless Jack, so protective, "Don't you touch him. Don't you dare touch him!" I think that's the moment I started to really love Jack, not just find him amusing.
I think the problem is, RTD fell in love with his character of Rose, and that tainted her. I had the same problem with Battlestar Galactica, the creator was in love with one of the characters he was writing and was a complete letdown on other characters.
Which one was that? I watch the show, but I haven't gotten into the fandom or backstage stuff.
But then I wonder, did RTD plan on keeping Rose for another season? And if he did, did that maybe rush her departure?
Evidently, he knew from the beginning of the series (as he did with CE in S1) that she was leaving. I can see on paper why he thought this was a good ending, but the way it undermined all her S1 growth just made it feel...off.
I think MY biggest problem of the season was that I didn't have much fun.
I can sympathize with that. Some of it was that I felt on tenterhooks even on some of the better episodes, afraid it was about to all fall apart at any moment because it was so unevenly written.
Although there were bits of SR I loved (I do think it was the warmest/most emotional episode of the year), I liked The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit best of all. And yet it could have been a stand-alone movie; I don't think that Rose and the Doctor were distinctively "Rose" and "Doctor"-ish enough to really matter. And they really did have excellent actors in that episode. Poor Scooti. RIP Toby. Jefferson ::sniff:: I cared about them. Ida rocked. RTD seems better at more mature women than young ones! All the 40-somethings: Ida, Jackie (who had a great moment in Love & Monsters), Mrs. Moore, Harriet (until he assassinated her ::hates::).
Random question: why do people hate Pete? I don't get it. I don't like alt!Pete very much, but real!Pete was lovely. I get why Jackie was charmed by him, with all his faults. And he was bright enough and brave enough to do the right thing - you totally got him as Rose's Daddy.
For me, I enjoy Ten/Rose in the show the first time I watch the episode, on repeat, I see the problems.
What has amazed me is that my love for S1 doesn't dim at all. I still get choked up at the same places, I still love the performances, and I often find that the plots hold up better for me on repeated viewings (The Long Game). Even when there were plot holes (Boom Town, I'm looking at you), there was such charm and warmth in the performances. I hated the Slitheen, and I'm not fond of the plot, but I do love watching CE and Annette Badland work. And I always zip back and re-watch that moment with the model, when the Doctor grabs it, scattering all the bits, and he and Jack geek out over the "surfboard". They're such blokes right there!
And: "She's climbing out the window, isn't she?"
::snorfle::
I think the relationship was written really well in "Fear Her",
I agree. The one genuine spark I felt all season was the "Are you deducting?"/"I think I am" exchange. Although the marmalade thing was ridiculous, it was well-played.
until the end when Rose stuck her foot in her mouth and earned that earlier gut-puncher "I was a dad once".
This season, I just haven't been sure whether those clunkers were intentional or not. Last year, when there were slips or hurtful things said, it seemed easier to realize those things were meant to be there. Everything was more subtle and didn't have to be spelled out. Two great examples:
Father's Day: The Doctor saying that he had no clue how to get out of the situation - very convincingly; yet it's clear that he knows Pete has to die.
The Empty Child: Dr. Constantine says, "I used to be a father and a grandfather," and the Doctor says, almost to himself, "I know the feeling."
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Kara/Starbuck is loved beyond words apparently, and for one, I don't share the love sentiment and they seem to work harder on her stories and fail with my favorite, Lee/Apollo.
I liked The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit best of all.
They were very good, and yeah, given time they might take the place of SR. The new characters were love in those episodes, they were so real and I thought I was going to cry when the Doctor left Ida alone and Jefferson was going to be killed. Poor Toby, he died a virgin.
Random question: why do people hate Pete?
I don't know, because I really liked real!Pete. The alt!Pete was a little grating, and I really love that they made them with that difference. But for me, I don't understand why people didn't like Pete/Jackie in the finale. They both were hesitate because they were't really each other's spouses. And Jackie had no problem screaming at him for leaving Rose behind and him reminding her that it wasn't his daughter. It seemed very constant that they knew they weren't really who they looked like, but they couldn't seem to get over that and still just wanted to be together. Maybe it's the baby thing, although, the ending with the goodbye to the Doctor seems like it might have been a while since they were separated (on Rose's side).
What has amazed me is that my love for S1 doesn't dim at all.
Mine doesn't dim, it freakin' GROWS! I just love it, and while I have my gripes with "Boom Town", CE was frickin' ON as the Doctor and Jack was hot and flirting with the Doctor, not so much with Rose, which I find amusing.
The one genuine spark I felt all season was the "Are you deducting?"/"I think I am" exchange.
He said that, and I was like, "The hell? They going to start making out now?" He just seemed to REALLY like the thought that she was deducting.
I sorta liked the marmalade moment, it was just random and really emphasized that he's such a kid. Or maybe DT just likes sticking his fingers in his mouth, which he's been known to do. Um, yeah.
Everything was more subtle and didn't have to be spelled out.
See, I thought so as well. The only cluckers I remember from the top of my head from season one was "I could save the world but lose you" and "What use are emotions when you cannot save the woman you love" or whatever, which is excused because the Doctor barely reacts to that, he was going to open the door anyway, like he said, he wasn't going to kill her again.
The Empty Child: Dr. Constantine says, "I used to be a father and a grandfather," and the Doctor says, almost to himself, "I know the feeling."
God, I just keep finding more and more that makes me fall in love with this particular episode more and more.
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As for Jackie and alt!Pete, I think that Camille Coduri and Shaun Dingwall did a great job with that. I didn't begrudge their time in the spotlight (even if I thought the ending was a little pat and had seen it coming for 6 episodes!), and I liked the fact that they acknowledged that they were different people from the ones they had fallen in love with.
Mine doesn't dim, it freakin' GROWS!
I know. That's one of the reasons that a big, big part of me wishes they had just STOPPED at the end of series one. Have it be a one-off mini-series (or give more time and do them every once in a while - and oh, while they're at it, stop working CE into the ground; you can see how much he puts into things, I'm not exactly surprised he was falling apart by the end.
while I have my gripes with "Boom Town", CE was frickin' ON as the Doctor and Jack was hot and flirting with the Doctor, not so much with Rose, which I find amusing.
I always got the feeling that Jack's seduction of Rose was all part of the con, and although he ended up loving her like a good friend (one he wouldn't mind being "with benefits"), the one he really loved and fancied was the Doctor. I don't know how much of that is writing, and how much John Barrowman's performance - as a gay man, he may well have just sparked that way. But when he talks about CE in the Confidentials, etc., his ears get pink! I think he had a little crush... Awwwww.
He said that, and I was like, "The hell? They going to start making out now?" He just seemed to REALLY like the thought that she was deducting.
That was my favourite moment between them ALL SERIES! It was just a fleeting thing. I think one of the keys is that they slowed down for a minute. It still wasn't a patch on that conversation at the beginning of The Unquiet Dead (the one that has the "better with two" line). I thought Rose was going to grab him by the front of his jumper and slam him up against the console; and he would have just laughed and rolled with it.
Re: The season 1 clunkers - I agree from a writing standpoint BUT I think the actors sold it. Which is some trick.
God, I just keep finding more and more that makes me fall in love with this particular episode more and more.
I love TEC/TDD. But I also like that they form a peak - that unlike TIP/TSP, the Doctor and Rose are central to what makes it great, and it's all been led up to. I love their little conversation at the beginning, when he stops screwdrivering the lock and just looks up at her with a little squint, "Are you sure about that T-shirt?" and she says, "'m not sure yet. I'm takin' it out for a spin." It's cute, but there's subtext and warmth and fun there that's directed between them, rather than at us.
Sigh.
Thirteen fantastic episodes (or, well, 10 fantastic, and 3 more that are important stepping stones!)
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I have much love for Apollo, have since I first saw the new series, when I started with, I think it was the fourth episode of the season. BSG had the same problem, IMHO, that DW just had, the first season was much better than the second.
But when he talks about CE in the Confidentials, etc., his ears get pink! I think he had a little crush... Awwwww.
John was absolutely adorable in the Condidentials when he talked about CE and Doctor/Rose.
when he stops screwdrivering the lock and just looks up at her with a little squint, "Are you sure about that T-shirt?" and she says, "'m not sure yet. I'm takin' it out for a spin."
That was a really good moment, because they didn't JUST flirt, they teased each other and it wasn't always in the most romantic way, which is why I loved their relationship, because it really was ambiguous. Anyone could read it in any way. Friends, lovers, friends with benefits, it didn't matter because the Doctor and Rose didn't care, they were traveling together, they were happy, they cared about each other, they didn't need to define it. Guh, now I have to watch season one again. I have all the episodes except AoL/WW3, which I really don't mind not having. I actually think they're (Rose and the Doctor) a little off in those episodes, but it may just be that they aren't the best episodes.
I just watched the end of "Doomsday", just the second time, and it wasn't as bad as the first time. Her exit was sad, for sure, but it wasn't that bad. I cried again, but then I noticed. When she's pounding on the way, it's like when she was pleading with the TARDIS to take her back (in PotW), but when she's done, she turns around and sort of holds her head up to walk back to Jackie, Mickey and Pete (and I loved when they showed Jackie taking both of the men's hands. Beautiful little touch). And I understand the goodbye on the beach now, him showing up opened the wound that wasn't healed, made it bleed, and make it possible to heal. That's weird, I won't repeat that. I just mean, she never wanted to say goodbye, and of course it would be hard on her, and she's very sensitive when thinking of not being with the Doctor forever, but now I totally DON'T see the suicide angle. I understand the feelings now, I just wish that didn't have to be the last time we saw Rose Tyler (for now). Even the BBC site has it down as an unhappy ending. How is that fair RTD?
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Although that one is great, this is the one which has an effect all out of reasonable proportion....
they didn't JUST flirt, they teased each other and it wasn't always in the most romantic way, which is why I loved their relationship, because it really was ambiguous. Anyone could read it in any way. Friends, lovers, friends with benefits, it didn't matter because the Doctor and Rose didn't care, they were traveling together, they were happy, they cared about each other, they didn't need to define it.
Exactly. It's an all-encompassing relationship - which is why I think sex between them would be more about passion, fun, and love than romance, if you get what I mean. Therefore, it seems to me greater than lesser. Part of a greater whole.
re: AoL/WWIII: I think the problem there was largely the director. This was the one that CE blew up on, and having seen the result, I don't blame him. It's played too broadly on the whole. But then there are so many moments/characters I love, I still like it better than most of S2. Actually, I do love it more; I just don't like it more :-)
When she's pounding on the way, it's like when she was pleading with the TARDIS to take her back (in PotW), but when she's done, she turns around and sort of holds her head up to walk back to Jackie, Mickey and Pete
I did like that. It shows a little growth.
I never got hysterical/suicidal, and I get that they told us about her more proactive life, we just didn't see it, which is bad drama. However, consistent with a lot of S2.
If I can get some other things off my desk, I'm still tempted to do the rest of S1 in picture posts. No one will care but me, but I enjoy doing it!
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Guh..I'm sorry, are there such a thing as words for that? I could just stare at that.
which is why I think sex between them would be more about passion, fun, and love than romance, if you get what I mean.
Yes! Besides, I really don't think the Doctor knows romance, he's a bit too oblivious to that, bless him.
This was the one that CE blew up on, and having seen the result, I don't blame him.
Really, that's interesting. I don't know any of the behind-the-scenes stuff, I feel like I'm missing something.
I never got hysterical/suicidal
I didn't think she was suicidal, but I could see where people were coming from with that angle, now I don't.
If I can get some other things off my desk, I'm still tempted to do the rest of S1 in picture posts. No one will care but me, but I enjoy doing it!
That reminds me! I have to finish season 1 as well, my Doctor/Rose posts, I have BT, BW and PotW still. I'd love to see yours though! It'll be a lot easier now that I can make my own screencaps!
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It really shouldn't be as...compelling as it is, should it? Let's all just take a moment and stare.
Makes you want to grow fangs, doesn't it?
I admit, I have a thing for throats. For a short, chubby guy, David Krumholtz has a great throat (see icon).
I was just over at the BBC bulletin boards, and I really shouldn't, you know? I really do not get how people say, "Wow, S2 was so much better written than S1."
And this cracks me up: the argument that Rose + 9 is creepy because a 900+ age gap is too much. But Rose + 10 is fine?! He's older! You ageist hypocrites (and very dumb at math, too). There's someone at TWOP who occasionally pops up with the same argument, and even funnier she said "CE is 15 years older than BP - yuck." Well, as it happens DT is 13 years older, so... what? Her actual argument was that it was "grody" and that she knew some people in real life who had that kind of age gap and that was "grody" too. This is a married woman, apparently. Who speaks like a 10-year-old.
But seriously. If you don't find CE attractive? Fine. He's an acquired taste, thought very rewarding. But to make that kind of age argument? just laughable, really.
Yes! Besides, I really don't think the Doctor knows romance, he's a bit too oblivious to that, bless him.
But he's having such fun! I actually think Ten might do it more because he likes playing games more, but Nine is so no-nonsense, I think he'd be more likely to do something totally unexpected and sweet, like having chips at Woman Wept or something. Better than candlelight and roses any day.
Re: CE blowing up at Keith Boak, I've only heard rumors (mostly people who saw them arguing during the shoot), but CE is notorious for pushing writers and directors to make things better. I know that on at least two occasions, the people in question admitted that he was right, and that they did make it better. Given the quality of his output, you've got to give him some credit.
I didn't think she was suicidal, but I could see where people were coming from with that angle, now I don't.
I think there were a lot of very invested fangirls! :-) I was very invested in POTW - could barely breathe; I cried here, but mostly a few quiet tears at the end because Billie was so good at crying.
I'm hoping to do a "Rose" pic post this weekend. I've got a project I have to finish, and that can be my "carrot".
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Thank you, 'cause I do too now.
There's someone at TWOP who occasionally pops up with the same argument, and even funnier she said "CE is 15 years older than BP - yuck."
Oh lord. There are worse age differences in movies. Star Wars? Harrison Ford was at least 20 years older than Carrie Fisher. King Arthur? Again, 20 year age difference between love interests. Nobody cries foul with movies. I think what really calls attention is that DT really looks young for his age, and sometimes CE could look his age, I'll admit it, even though when he does he still looks hot IMO.
the argument that Rose + 9 is creepy because a 900+ age gap is too much. But Rose + 10 is fine?!
See, even though I love Doctor/Rose, I still get a bit out of whack when I really think about it. That's why I don't think about it, that's why his age isn't called to attention so often, so that the writers can get away with a romance and not get called on it. 900 years old, 19 years old, I can see why people don't like the romance. Which is why season one worked for me, because you really didn't have to see it as a romance. Maybe that's why I'm so disappointed with season 2, with a younger actor, well, younger looking actor, they think it's better to push the romance. That really bothers me.
Better than candlelight and roses any day.
I don't think the Doctor would even have the capability to think of candlelight and roses. But I think if any romantic gestures came about, it would be purely incidental.
I cried here, but mostly a few quiet tears at the end because Billie was so good at crying.
When I watched the ending again, I cried hard. It was truly heartbreaking. But as much as seeing the Doctor crying makes me cringe, DT rocked in the beach scene. He was amazing there, I wanted to give them both a hug.
I hope to see your "Rose" pic post soon!
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They were made by mrv3000.
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