Re: 2 -- I think that a big problem I have with people saying that X thing that Y character did in canon was OOC is that they use it to dismiss the action entirely, not bothering to explain it away, and choosing to just act like it never happened.
Like, for example, the Nukies do with the entire Blindness Arc, claiming that the way Noah treated Luke during that time is OOC because it was so extremely problematic and counter to what they wanted to see happen that they just decided to dismiss it as bad writing, when, in fact, it wasn't OOC at all, if one actually looks at how Noah behaved in canon during his entire storyline, and looked at the Blindness arc simply as a longer/larger extension of that behavior.
Same with how they claimed Luke was behaving OOC with Reid at the end of the show -- it was actually very in character for Luke, especially pre-Noah Luke, and while it might not have fit the way he behaved with Noah usually, it wasn't out of the realm of believability for Luke as a character.
Sorry, my kid was distracting me, I meant to also say that I think the term OOC is used differently in fandom terms than in real life terms, too. For someone to behave OOC in real life is used as a way to express astonishment at a behavior. To say it in a fannish context is very different. It means that this is a behavior the audience/reader found unbelievable and they had to actively try to suspend disbelief or even go so far as to fanwank into believability. When I say, "Gosh, for my bff to have abused an animal seems really out of character, despite the photographic evidence of it that you're showing me," that doesn't mean I'm having so suspend disbelief so much as I'm trying to accept a difficult reality. But when using the term OOC for canon (or for talking about fic) then you're talking about how you didn't believe it, and had to work hard to believe it, not that you're having a difficult time accepting a blatant reality. In fact, the very question of whether or not it is real is up for grabs
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Re: 2 -- I think that a big problem I have with people saying that X thing that Y character did in canon was OOC is that they use it to dismiss the action entirely, not bothering to explain it away, and choosing to just act like it never happened. … Like, for example, the Nukies do with the entire Blindness Arc, claiming that the way Noah treated Luke during that time is OOC because it was so extremely problematic and counter to what they wanted to see happen that they just decided to dismiss it as bad writing, when, in fact, it wasn't OOC at all, if one actually looks at how Noah behaved in canon during his entire storyline, and looked at the Blindness arc simply as a longer/larger extension of that behavior. Oh, absolutely, which is why I say things that seem off need to be incorporated into fic when and where appropriate, even if you then try to find a way to deal with it in some way that works for your understanding of the characterization. In fic, in live watch analysis, whatever, we justify, try to understand and explain
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Re: #1, it depends on the fic for me. But I find some people can really overwrite character's inner thoughts. Like, there will be paragraphs of it in the middle of a conversation, and I agree that usually, people don't pause for five minutes before replying to someone. I'm a less is more type of writer, I think. But that can go for dialogue, too -- I don't like it when a character spells out everything
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This is going to be a very poor reply, but...yep, I agree. On all of it.
(For instances like Reid's situation, that's just bad writing, and I have no problem wanking it. As I said, I acknowledge that he said that to Chris; I just don't think he was telling the truth. For Luke's situation, I don't want to explain, ignore or deny the election storyline. Yeah, it's not like him at all, but that's kind of the whole point. That's something that can give fanfic writers a whole hell of a lot of material.)
(Also also, have I ever told you I adore that icon?)
For Luke's situation, I don't want to explain, ignore or deny the election storyline. Yeah, it's not like him at all, but that's kind of the whole point.
Exactly. And it led to Luke rethinking his priorities and what he wanted to do with his life. Sometimes it's important for characters to make mistakes. And Luke knew he was wrong, and he was sorry for it. Contrasted to Noah's many douche moves over the years, when he was never particularly sorry. He was remarkably in character throughout.
Honestly, I'm impressed with how consistent the writers were with Noah over the years. And you could always rely on JS to bring the same (bad) acting too.
1. I prefer writing dialogue. I remember my first fanfics from way back when and they are almost all dialogue. ::facepalm:: I've really worked on the inner thoughts/emotions side of things, but I agree that when a lot of this is included in the middle of a conversation between characters, it can get unwieldy. And this is also the place where writers can have problems with too much of the telling and not enough of the showing. It's a real balancing act sometimes. My least favorite thing to write is action scenes. Writing in BtVS fandom for so long, I kind of had to learn how to write them, though I'm not sure if mine are any good at all. Serviceable, probably. *g*
2. I agree that fans often know and understand the characters better than the writers, especially when multiple writers are on the show.
In fact, I think a good chunk of fic is written because a character does something that doesn't sit right with the fic writer's perception of that character and so they have to fix it. This is part of the fun of fanfic, and I
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And this is also the place where writers can have problems with too much of the telling and not enough of the showing. Yes! Also for me, I like to leave things a little vague sometimes, a little open to interpretation. Adds to the "mystery" of the storyline, in a way, especially when it's being told from the other characters' POV and they don't necessarily have all the details.
You don't want to spell everything out. I think the inner thoughts stuff is good and pretty much necessary if it's a character by themselves reflecting on the story so far, where they want to go, fighting their feelings maybe, whatever. But if there are multiple characters interacting in a scene, I'd rather have the dialogue and a little bit of action to hold it all together.
And #2 - yes, indeed! I've written several fic like that, and I've read a whole lot more.
I think we are basically arguing the same point. I particularly like this statement: So, I think characters CAN act completely OOC, and often do, but at the same time, it's usually explained by part of their character. I think it gets at some of the things BBC and I were talking about above with regards to the election storyline
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One more thing - I think we're arguing the same point, but only in situations where it can be explained by some aspect of the established character because the writers do a good enough job to make those connections obvious to viewers paying attention. But there are certainly things that can't be wanked, no matter how hard you try, and in that case, it's simply OOC and/or bad writing. Which brings me back to just because it happens in canon, doesn't mean it's IC, so for those situations, we're really not arguing the same point. ;D
LOL! Here's an unusual opinion - I can take or leave the smut! But I agree that dialogue can help move the plot along faster (although sometimes you do want to slow it down too!)
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Like, for example, the Nukies do with the entire Blindness Arc, claiming that the way Noah treated Luke during that time is OOC because it was so extremely problematic and counter to what they wanted to see happen that they just decided to dismiss it as bad writing, when, in fact, it wasn't OOC at all, if one actually looks at how Noah behaved in canon during his entire storyline, and looked at the Blindness arc simply as a longer/larger extension of that behavior.
Same with how they claimed Luke was behaving OOC with Reid at the end of the show -- it was actually very in character for Luke, especially pre-Noah Luke, and while it might not have fit the way he behaved with Noah usually, it wasn't out of the realm of believability for Luke as a character.
Also, this part: Real people ( ... )
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(For instances like Reid's situation, that's just bad writing, and I have no problem wanking it. As I said, I acknowledge that he said that to Chris; I just don't think he was telling the truth. For Luke's situation, I don't want to explain, ignore or deny the election storyline. Yeah, it's not like him at all, but that's kind of the whole point. That's something that can give fanfic writers a whole hell of a lot of material.)
(Also also, have I ever told you I adore that icon?)
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For Luke's situation, I don't want to explain, ignore or deny the election storyline. Yeah, it's not like him at all, but that's kind of the whole point.
Exactly. And it led to Luke rethinking his priorities and what he wanted to do with his life. Sometimes it's important for characters to make mistakes. And Luke knew he was wrong, and he was sorry for it. Contrasted to Noah's many douche moves over the years, when he was never particularly sorry. He was remarkably in character throughout.
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Honestly, I'm impressed with how consistent the writers were with Noah over the years. And you could always rely on JS to bring the same (bad) acting too.
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2. I agree that fans often know and understand the characters better than the writers, especially when multiple writers are on the show.
In fact, I think a good chunk of fic is written because a character does something that doesn't sit right with the fic writer's perception of that character and so they have to fix it. This is part of the fun of fanfic, and I ( ... )
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Yes! Also for me, I like to leave things a little vague sometimes, a little open to interpretation. Adds to the "mystery" of the storyline, in a way, especially when it's being told from the other characters' POV and they don't necessarily have all the details.
You don't want to spell everything out. I think the inner thoughts stuff is good and pretty much necessary if it's a character by themselves reflecting on the story so far, where they want to go, fighting their feelings maybe, whatever. But if there are multiple characters interacting in a scene, I'd rather have the dialogue and a little bit of action to hold it all together.
And #2 - yes, indeed! I've written several fic like that, and I've read a whole lot more.
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I totally buy your explanation of OOC in canon, and your example of Reid confessing to Chris is a great reason why!
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