Sex, Size, and Stars in the Whedonverse (And a Poll)

[me_llamo_nic]

If you have seen ANY of Joss Whedon's shows, please participate.The poll is essnetially about the portrayal of sexuality in Joss' shows and to what degree these portrayals come across as gratuitous, unrealistic, or unnecessary

Comments

[gabrielleabelle]

You mentioned vamp!Willow. The icon is justified, not gratuitous.

I'm gonna have to come back when I'm not in the midst of finals-studying (and perhaps when I've had some food) to make a proper thinky-thought comment. Interesting post. I'll post a link on my LJ for you. :)

[me_llamo_nic]

I'll post a link on my LJ for you.

You're awesome! =D

Study break! Yay!

[gabrielleabelle]

Ack! I don't know where to start on this one. Let's just begin with BtVS cause it rocks.

I've always given props to BtVS for it's relative lack of male gaze-edness. I see it criticized as being something of a T&A genre show - usually by people who haven't actually seen the series. Admittedly, the first season featured some gratuitous sexying up of the Buffster. But the fashion of the women becomes more realistic, less sexualized, and more modest as the series goes on. We don't get the sexy camera angles that usually come with the male gaze. The focus is on Buffy; not on her tits or ass.

I think the general idea that any female-led action/genre show must be produced to titillate men is so prevalent in most people's minds, it's hard to shake it with Buffy - even though it doesn't bear out.

On the contrary, the show is very much female gaze-y. Angel gets shirtless early on in the series (S1's Angel). From them on, it's manflesh, manflesh, and more manflesh. I believe every guy on the cast gets at least one shirtless scene. Three of

Re: Study break! Yay!

[me_llamo_nic]

I think the general idea that any female-led action/genre show must be produced to titillate men is so prevalent in most people's minds, it's hard to shake it with Buffy - even though it doesn't bear out.

I tend to agree, though I feel there are some missteps, where cultural shorthand gets subbed in.

it's an exercise in gender role and privilege reversal when the shoe is on the other foot.

It's definitely intersting to consider.

And, as I said in the post: the fact that Joss and Co. are equal opportunity objectifiers doesn't win them a whole lot of points.

That said though, I rarely feel that any of the sexuality, male or female, is detracting from the story. The S8 comics are my exception.

AtS, Dr. Horrible, and Firefly, I rated fairly low.

Same here. AtS has more missteps than most, but even those don't give me too much pause. (Though I don't doubt that my mom (and others) could go for hours on the subject.)

Dollhouse is always the toughie. Because it's very explicitly sexualized, but that's the whole point of the show.I

[eowyn_315]

Very interesting stuff. I've always found it interesting that BtVS seems to cater a lot more to the female gaze than most shows. Yes, they do show the girls in sexy outfits, but not exceptionally so. And the gratuitous nudity? All men. Joss' other shows are much, much more typical male gazey.

(I'd also note that JM said he felt very objectified because of all the nudity, which is largely why I find it bothersome - I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable in their job. But it's interesting that he felt secure in admitting that afterward, whereas female actors tend to just accept it as part of the job and don't complain.)

The writers even pointed out that they were doing exactly what the director of her commercial shoot in a previous episode had done.Wow. I thought it was bad when it seemed they were so oblivious that they didn't realize they were contradicting themselves, but it might actually be worse that they KNEW what they were doing and did it anyway. It's hardly surprising, though, given how many times Joss has sent these

[pocochina]

JM said he felt very objectified because of all the nudity, which is largely why I find it bothersome - I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable in their job. But it's interesting that he felt secure in admitting that afterward, whereas female actors tend to just accept it as part of the job and don't complain

So much this. DB's nude scenes don't bother me at all, because it's fairly obviously not a big deal to him (he's topless enough on Bones, where he's a producer, that I feel okay in that conclusion), but JM's discomfort really does make me not like those scenes as much as I would.

Tara and Mellie aren't actually large women

Seriously. There was definitely more than one shot on DH where I confused November and Echo when I blinked away from the screen for a moment. And dude, if someone can be confused with Eliza even for a second, she's not large.

[eowyn_315]

Yeah, I think DB clearly does not mind being naked. Amy Acker has said he used to moon people on set. (Annnnd... ick. I just realized that takes on a whole new meaning given the sexual harassment charges.)

[me_llamo_nic]

BtVS seems to cater a lot more to the female gaze than most shows

I hardly noticed, actually. Although, DB and JM are naked and/or shirtless quite a bit. Even the Oz full monty is featured from time. Somehow I just hadn't equated that to catering to the female gaze. You do seem to be right though.

but it might actually be worse that they KNEW what they were doing and did it anyway.

Well, Cordy has a line about it when she was telling Groo about her life in L.A. Something to the effect of: "They had me in this skimpy, revealing...(looks down at her outfit)...(clearly trying to put Groo's mind at ease)...oh, nothing like this though."

(Dollhouse is like one enormous example, lol)At least with Dollhouse I can sort of see how that's the point. Joss tries (not always perfectly) to juxtapose both sides of the discussion without saying either one of them is right. The messages conflict a lot, but I feel like they're kind of supposed to

[menomegirl]

I wish you had included the Angel comics in the poll.

And are you forgetting Kaylee? Joss requested that Jewel gain a bit of weight for the role.

[me_llamo_nic]

Are the Angel comics that bad? I read like...the first half or so. (I started to get bored when they got out of hell.) I didn't see much that left a sexual impression.

And are you forgetting Kaylee? Joss requested that Jewel gain a bit of weight for the role.

Really? I had no idea. I guess my mind kind of blanks over Kaylee because I just think of her has so tiny. I'm having trouble recalling her as particularly heavy, though she does beat out people like Inara, to be sure.

[menomegirl]

I freaking HATE the way the artist draws female figures.

Have you read Fray? There's a forward by Joss Whedon, which was written in 2003.

In it, he says:

I had come to Dark Horse with pretty much one stipulation: No cheesecake. No giant silicone hooters, no standing with her butt out in that bizarrely uncomfortable soft-core pose so many artists favor. None of those outfits that casually-and constantly-reveal portions of thong. I wanted a real girl, with real posture, a slight figure (that's my classy way of saying "little boobs"), and most of all, a distinctive face. A person.

Flash forward: Angel: After The Fall.

I always wondered if Brian Lynch and/or Frank Urru never freaking read that.

[me_llamo_nic]

I have not read Fray (though it's been on my list ever since I read her guest spot in S8).

And at least I can fanwank AtF as not canon. Fanwank always makes me feel better about things.

[pocochina]

Here via Gabs.

I'm so excited to see your Dollhouse thoughts, there aren't anywhere near enough of them around, IMO. You might be interested in this post at Amptoons, written way back during S1 but touching on some of the show's body issues.

They need full and rich development and they need to stop getting killed. If you kill off your only heavy person, you are disrespecting heavy people.

I pretty much went on a 1500-word rant on this in my Hollow Men episode review.

[me_llamo_nic]

Oh, links. I'll have to block out some time to read them here in a bit.

Glad you liked my thoughts. =)

[me_llamo_nic]

Okay, read the first link. Thoughts...

I read a lot of the reactions on Whedonesque when Miracle Laurie got the role and how she wasn't what anyone expected from the character description. She's definitely not my first thought when I hear the word "heavy", but I am glad that we got someone her size on TV, even though I don't like the way her arc went.

Fox didn’t want to re-cast November because Mellie was going to have sex scenes, they wanted to re-cast November because she was going to have a sexual relationship with the male lead character.

That is fucking tragic...and probably 100% true. I'm barely even shocked anymore when I hear that networks are doing this kind of stuff; it's just the pathetic expectation I have of them now.

This is all happening. There are lights in the darkness. The art that we get to create because the powerful patrons let us is one of them. But sometimes, yeah, it’s like running the daycare on the death-star.

So poignant.

That this is how far Joss Whedon can get when he fights is a demonstration how

[frelling_tralk]

I read a lot of the reactions on Whedonesque when Miracle Laurie got the role and how she wasn't what anyone expected from the character description. She's definitely not my first thought when I hear the word "heavy",I saw it as a similar case to Amber Bensen on Buffy where wardrobe seemed to have no clue how to dress woman who aren't a size zero, and seemed to almost be actively be aiming to make Tara look bigger than Amber actually ever was in rea life, what with all the loose floaty clothing. She had a horizontal stripe directly across her waist in one episode! It's like form-fitting and flattering clothing is impossible unless you're incredibly petite, so the women who aren't end up standing out even more next to their castmates. And obviously the characters of Tara and Mellie were meant to be slightly frumpy and Mumsy, so dressing them up as high fashion models would have been out of place, but there is a happy medium between the two. They obviously wanted the characters to look tv attractive in terms of hair and make-up, yet the

[poxydoo]

I liked this post.
I suppose the person who has not seen Dollhouse S2 is me, so I did not read further, which is sad, because I was enjoying it... But I must not be spoiled. So there.

I have, of course, just seen Dollhouse, Firefly, and Dr. Horrible. Actually, I thought the inclusion of Dr. Horrible was amusing, because I thought... what sexual portrayal? Especially of men? It wasn't a terribly sexy show, I thought

[me_llamo_nic]

with the obvious exception of Inara, whose occupation is sex. But it wasn't like... LOOK ONE OF OUR CHARACTERS IS A WHORE, it was done tastefully

I look to Firefly as the best example of sex overall in a Whedon show. Bar none.

I voted low (1-3) on most of them. Joss is typically quite good about portraying the scenes in a way that doesn't detract from the story being told.

And it pushed me another couple of steps towards watching Buffy! So be proud of yourself for that.

I am! It was the lesbians, wasn't it?

[poxydoo]

Well. That's always a plus. But no, just hearing more about it.
So, I'll tell you what. You still interested in the trade? I will watch at least the first two seasons of Buffy (and the rest if I like it, of course), which is 34 episodes, if you watch Twin Peaks, the entirety of which is two seasons, or 30 episodes. Dealio?

[me_llamo_nic]

Sounds fair to me. I'll try to get started on Twin Peaks a.s.a.p.