So, I rewatched Doctor Who Series 6.1 Today...
All seven episodes. It was my present to myself. Moffat's present to me is coming tomorrow.
I'm trying to figure out a couple of timeline issues.
Specifically those related to River, the Anglican Marines, and Dorium-the-old-fat-blue-man. They all seem to be living in the 51st century, from what I can tell, but they're timelines are a bit more complicated.
More specifically, I'm trying to piece together 'The Time of Angels', 'The Pandorica Opens', and 'A Good Man Goes to War'.
In what order do those things happen if you're River Song?
Well, if we can assume she was being literal about the back-to-front thing, River did her explanation at Demon's Run, then her chat with Rory at Stormcage, then the Pandorica, then the Angels.
In what order do those things happen if you're the Anglican Marines?
"He doesn't know. Who and what you are." -Father Octavian to River in the angels two-parter-
So, is it implied here that the Angels came after Demon's Run for the Marines as well? Are they on a similar timeline to River (when she's actually in her cell, that is)? Octavian, being a high-ranking officer, might know that their had been a plan to use her as a weapon against the Doctor. He might even know that she's "human-plus". Or maybe he simply knew about the man she killed and nothing more.
Because if it's after Demon's Run, it would have to be pretty well after for the Marines to consider trusting the Doctor. Makes me think it's probably before. The Angels is just another dark legend to them, wherein the Doctor gets a load of people killed. But then again, that gets things tangled up for River's timeline.
Earlier Marines working with/guarding a later River. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Stormcage is a facility that exists in the 51st century. One assumes River keeps escaping and returning in a linear order. At least, linear from River's, the Marines', and the rest of the 51st century's perespective.
So, I think we have to stick to the first option. That the Marines have experienced these events in the same order that River has. Demon's Run first and the Angels second.
In what order do those things happen if you're Dorium?
Well, let's look at the facts. River gets a vortex manipulator from Dorium in 'The Pandorica Opens'. For River, if we're still taking back-to-front literally, this is after Demon's Run.
However, Dorium is closing up shop in 'A Good Man Goes to War'. Closing up a shop that River will go to later. And she goes there looking for time travel, so it stands to reason that she had to get there in linear order.
Well, maybe he re-opened the shop.
Could be...except he got killed by the headless monks. Can't very well sell vortex manipulators to people if you're dead.
So, unless Dorium's got special powers or a twin brother or a ganger out there, he has to experience Demon's Run after The Pandorica.
Which does leave a question of how he managed to get out of everyone else's linear order.
But who knows. Maybe he's got his own vortex manipulator.
Sidebar about River and time travel. How does she keep getting and losing these vortex manipulators. She's got one on her wrist in the final scene of AGMGTW. This, we're meant to believe, is the earliest River even we've seen. Well, not really, but if it helps. At any rate, we're supposed to believe it's earlier than America and earlier than the beginning of the episode. Then, there's the issue of how she got from 51st century Stormcage to 21st century America. One assumes, another vortex manipulator. We see her get the one in the Pandorica, but we're led to believe that this is after both of those events. I'd say maybe the Doctor takes it from her and then smuggles it back to her whenever he needs her help, but even that doesn't track because we see her use it to leave at the end of 'The Big Bang'. I suppose she could always cross her own timeline and give it to her younger self, but that gets into risky time differential, wibbly wobbly, universe explode-y wode-y territory.
But what if we throw back-to-front out the window? We can make all this fit nice and tidy. All we have to do is put Space 1969 and Demon's Run in between the Pandorica and the Angels.
It all stacks up nice and proper. And River's timeline is supposed to make sense if you're the Marines or if you're Dorium. As long as we can assume that both entities are static in the 51st century and not getting into their own time travelling shenanigans.
Space and Demon's Run can go in either order as long as they both happen after River's got a vortex manipulator. Otherwise, we have to assume that River and Dorium are responsible for ending the Time Agency...in reverse-temporal order. (I'm imagining a scene where Captain John watches a fellow Time Agent get his hand chopped off and then run's off in search of ex-boyfriend Jack, finds him and his brother and then Torchwood stuff goes down.)
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don't think there has ever been anything more confusing in Doctor Who than this back-to-front thing. It doesn't make sense from the timelines of 51st century bystanders and it doesn't make sense from a character persepective for River, based on some of her previous appearances. So, what's the deal with it?
Possibility 1: River is lying. I kind of doubt it.
Possibility 2: River was just speaking in a sort of general fashion, but not specifically. Maybe most of it is back-to-front, but occasionally things happen out of order.
Possibility 3: River was just simplifying things for Rory's sake. Here's how the Doctor might have done it.
Doctor: Our lives are back-to-front, does that make sense?
Rory: Yeah.
Doctor: Good, because it's not like that at all, but if it helps.
Possibility 4: Time has been rewritten. Something about the Doctor dying the way he did in 6x01 rewrote a whole bunch of time all around him. elisi explained it better in one of her posts.
Possibility 5: This is all just a big bunch of continuity errors. I don't want this to be it. I want to believe that Moffat's doing something brilliant, but I'm starting to wonder if he just doens't have any idea what he's doing. Even "time-can-be-rewritten" is just starting to feel like an excuse for continuity errors. However, this back-to-front thing seems like an error of such magnitude that it almost has to be something deliberate and plot-related. It's probably elisi's theory.
To clarify, I don't have a problem with things getting wibbly wobbly, timey wimey. I love it, actually. I love having to try and untangle River's timeline. What I don't love is when River tells me, "Nope, there's nothing to untangle. It's just a straight line in the opposite direction." Wheter it's a lie, a plot device, or a continuity error, it is inconsistent with the information we've already been given.
And lastly, just a couple of interesting things I noticed.
1. At the beginning of 'The Time of Angels', when the Doctor and Amy are in the museum, the Doctor refers to it as "the final resting place of the headless monks".
2. Something I missed the first two times through 'The Almost People'. Right near the end when they're about to leave ganger!Doctor behind.
ganger!Doctor: Well, my death arrives, I suppose.
original!Doctor: But this one we're not invited to.
ganger!Doctor: Pardon?
original!Doctor: Nothing.
Confirmation within the episode that Amy told original!Doctor about him inviting them to witness his death. Can't believe I missed that.
Anywho, I'm very eager for tomorrow's episode, regardless of how wibbly wobbly it gets.
I'm trying to figure out a couple of timeline issues.
Specifically those related to River, the Anglican Marines, and Dorium-the-old-fat-blue-man. They all seem to be living in the 51st century, from what I can tell, but they're timelines are a bit more complicated.
More specifically, I'm trying to piece together 'The Time of Angels', 'The Pandorica Opens', and 'A Good Man Goes to War'.
In what order do those things happen if you're River Song?
Well, if we can assume she was being literal about the back-to-front thing, River did her explanation at Demon's Run, then her chat with Rory at Stormcage, then the Pandorica, then the Angels.
In what order do those things happen if you're the Anglican Marines?
"He doesn't know. Who and what you are." -Father Octavian to River in the angels two-parter-
So, is it implied here that the Angels came after Demon's Run for the Marines as well? Are they on a similar timeline to River (when she's actually in her cell, that is)? Octavian, being a high-ranking officer, might know that their had been a plan to use her as a weapon against the Doctor. He might even know that she's "human-plus". Or maybe he simply knew about the man she killed and nothing more.
Because if it's after Demon's Run, it would have to be pretty well after for the Marines to consider trusting the Doctor. Makes me think it's probably before. The Angels is just another dark legend to them, wherein the Doctor gets a load of people killed. But then again, that gets things tangled up for River's timeline.
Earlier Marines working with/guarding a later River. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Stormcage is a facility that exists in the 51st century. One assumes River keeps escaping and returning in a linear order. At least, linear from River's, the Marines', and the rest of the 51st century's perespective.
So, I think we have to stick to the first option. That the Marines have experienced these events in the same order that River has. Demon's Run first and the Angels second.
In what order do those things happen if you're Dorium?
Well, let's look at the facts. River gets a vortex manipulator from Dorium in 'The Pandorica Opens'. For River, if we're still taking back-to-front literally, this is after Demon's Run.
However, Dorium is closing up shop in 'A Good Man Goes to War'. Closing up a shop that River will go to later. And she goes there looking for time travel, so it stands to reason that she had to get there in linear order.
Well, maybe he re-opened the shop.
Could be...except he got killed by the headless monks. Can't very well sell vortex manipulators to people if you're dead.
So, unless Dorium's got special powers or a twin brother or a ganger out there, he has to experience Demon's Run after The Pandorica.
Which does leave a question of how he managed to get out of everyone else's linear order.
But who knows. Maybe he's got his own vortex manipulator.
Sidebar about River and time travel. How does she keep getting and losing these vortex manipulators. She's got one on her wrist in the final scene of AGMGTW. This, we're meant to believe, is the earliest River even we've seen. Well, not really, but if it helps. At any rate, we're supposed to believe it's earlier than America and earlier than the beginning of the episode. Then, there's the issue of how she got from 51st century Stormcage to 21st century America. One assumes, another vortex manipulator. We see her get the one in the Pandorica, but we're led to believe that this is after both of those events. I'd say maybe the Doctor takes it from her and then smuggles it back to her whenever he needs her help, but even that doesn't track because we see her use it to leave at the end of 'The Big Bang'. I suppose she could always cross her own timeline and give it to her younger self, but that gets into risky time differential, wibbly wobbly, universe explode-y wode-y territory.
But what if we throw back-to-front out the window? We can make all this fit nice and tidy. All we have to do is put Space 1969 and Demon's Run in between the Pandorica and the Angels.
It all stacks up nice and proper. And River's timeline is supposed to make sense if you're the Marines or if you're Dorium. As long as we can assume that both entities are static in the 51st century and not getting into their own time travelling shenanigans.
Space and Demon's Run can go in either order as long as they both happen after River's got a vortex manipulator. Otherwise, we have to assume that River and Dorium are responsible for ending the Time Agency...in reverse-temporal order. (I'm imagining a scene where Captain John watches a fellow Time Agent get his hand chopped off and then run's off in search of ex-boyfriend Jack, finds him and his brother and then Torchwood stuff goes down.)
Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don't think there has ever been anything more confusing in Doctor Who than this back-to-front thing. It doesn't make sense from the timelines of 51st century bystanders and it doesn't make sense from a character persepective for River, based on some of her previous appearances. So, what's the deal with it?
Possibility 1: River is lying. I kind of doubt it.
Possibility 2: River was just speaking in a sort of general fashion, but not specifically. Maybe most of it is back-to-front, but occasionally things happen out of order.
Possibility 3: River was just simplifying things for Rory's sake. Here's how the Doctor might have done it.
Doctor: Our lives are back-to-front, does that make sense?
Rory: Yeah.
Doctor: Good, because it's not like that at all, but if it helps.
Possibility 4: Time has been rewritten. Something about the Doctor dying the way he did in 6x01 rewrote a whole bunch of time all around him. elisi explained it better in one of her posts.
Possibility 5: This is all just a big bunch of continuity errors. I don't want this to be it. I want to believe that Moffat's doing something brilliant, but I'm starting to wonder if he just doens't have any idea what he's doing. Even "time-can-be-rewritten" is just starting to feel like an excuse for continuity errors. However, this back-to-front thing seems like an error of such magnitude that it almost has to be something deliberate and plot-related. It's probably elisi's theory.
To clarify, I don't have a problem with things getting wibbly wobbly, timey wimey. I love it, actually. I love having to try and untangle River's timeline. What I don't love is when River tells me, "Nope, there's nothing to untangle. It's just a straight line in the opposite direction." Wheter it's a lie, a plot device, or a continuity error, it is inconsistent with the information we've already been given.
And lastly, just a couple of interesting things I noticed.
1. At the beginning of 'The Time of Angels', when the Doctor and Amy are in the museum, the Doctor refers to it as "the final resting place of the headless monks".
2. Something I missed the first two times through 'The Almost People'. Right near the end when they're about to leave ganger!Doctor behind.
ganger!Doctor: Well, my death arrives, I suppose.
original!Doctor: But this one we're not invited to.
ganger!Doctor: Pardon?
original!Doctor: Nothing.
Confirmation within the episode that Amy told original!Doctor about him inviting them to witness his death. Can't believe I missed that.
Anywho, I'm very eager for tomorrow's episode, regardless of how wibbly wobbly it gets.