There's a Birther in New Jersey, Owes Me a Condo!
Be careful what you wager. There's a Birther in New Jersey who bet me his house (turns out it's a condo,) that jus soli doesn't apply to the children of illegal immigrants. I probably won't be able to (and wouldn't want to) collect on the bet as stated, as it would involve putting a first cousin once removed (his wife) out of her home, and that would be uncool. I am however unemployed and would gladly accept a lower value payout in leui of the Condo. *Wink.* I do have an Amazon Wishlist Mr. Birther, I really been itching for that Pukifee Bonnie... If that's too rich for your blood, how about a copy of Portal 2? 8^P
Of course, the core portion of the argument has already been submitted to Failbook, though it'll be a few weeks before we know if it makes the front page like my Sketchy Bunny did... Go Vote for this Fail!!!
The expanded version of the argument however, can be read here, with commentary!!!!
So this all started in a comment thread on a link my Aunt posted about Obama releasing his long-form Birth Certificate, which of course, has got the Birthers all up in a tizzy... she argued with our lovely birther friend for a little while while he bleated about how Obama had somehow gotten into office without anyone ever checking it before now, and I joined in with a few choice words and a link to FactCheck.org... faced with the article there, he started on about how even if Obama WAS born in Hawaii, he's still not allowed to be president... due to his father... we now enter the argument in progress...
Birther: BTW...I guess the real issue is "Article 2, Section 1, Paragraph 5: "natural born citizen" is defined as born to American parents. Obama's father was a British subject of Kenya, not a 'naturalized' American."
[Don't know where he got this idea... maybe confusing the exemption for children of those with current diplomatic immunity?]
Mayo: Article Two, Section 1, Paragraph Five, in it's entirety: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
[Keep a digital copy of the Constitution on hand for arguing with Teabags? You bet I do!!!]
Birther: The President must be a natural born citizen of the United States, at least 35 years old and a resident of the United States for at least 14 years. An obsolete part of this clause provides that instead of being a natural born citizen, a person may be a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. The reason for this clause was to extend eligibility to Citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, regardless of their place of birth, who were born under the allegiance of a foreign sovereign before the founding of the United States. Without this clause, no one would have been eligible to be president until thirty-five years after the founding of the United States. The keys here being "at the time of the adoption of the Constitution" and "Without this clause, no one would have been eligible to be president until thirty-five years after the founding of the United States".
[I can only presume he's quoting some educational source that explains the constitution to those with reading comprehension problems.]
Mayo: Uh huh... and where in that paragraph does it say that that person's parents must be citizens?
Birther: Every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen. John Armor Bingham (principal framer of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution).
[Note that this is NOT a part of the Paragraph he just quoted at me above... I think he's missing quotes, and the end is an attribution.]
Mayo: Every child born within the United States jurisdiction, is a Natural Born Citizen. PERIOD.
Birther: Every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.
[Saying it twice... doesn't make it any more true. This time without the attribution I see...]
Mayo: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
[Hello 14th Amendment!!!!]
There were a few posts removed here, having to do with why this is a moot point because he's a just going to wait until 2012 and then remove Obama with prayer and his vote. They're not relevant to the argument since they're all about why the argument is moot. Then he picked up the argument again...
Birther: Your previous post has nothing to do with qualifications to become President otherwise every child born in the US to Illegal Alien parents would be eligible to be President and I can confidently say they are not.
[HAHAHAHHHHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!1!!!ONE!!! Ahem.... sorry... still makes me laugh.]
Mayo: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! *Finally gets done laughing.* Dude... children of illegal immigrants ARE Natural Born American Citizens!!!!! ANY child born on American soil, is a natural born American. Citizenship of the parents only matters if the kids are born outside the country.
Birther: Are they eligible to become President? I think not. Can't happen.
[Pssst... even the other Teabags know you're wrong. That's why they're trying to bring the 14th Amendment up for review.]
Mayo: Yup. They are. Assuming they live 14 years in the country before hand and are 35 years of age.
Birther: I'd bet my house they can't.
[JACKPOT!!!!]
Mayo: Oh wow. I'm getting me a house!!!
Birther: So you're saying if Hitler and Zsa Zsa Gabor had a love child in the US, this child when it grew up could become President of the US? I think the framers would have a whole lot to say about that. And it's really a condo. Sorry to get your hopes up.
[Go for the Godwin!!! Also... has he got a problem with Zsa Zsa Gabor, or has he forgotten Eva Braun's name?]
Mayo: To I have to take your mortgage too? I may not want it. But yes.. if the child were born on American Soil, and lived here for 14 years, and was 35 years of age, they would be eligible to be President. They'd have a hell of a time getting elected, but they'd be ELIGIBLE.
["My Father was Hitler" is kind of political suicide...]
Birther: Obama got elected so I guess anyone could.
[So did Bush... Twice...]
8^)
Addendum: Of course he won't pay up... though as I said above, I didn't expect him to, really... not with his Condo at least. It'd be nice to have some new toys, or some cash... but apparently he thinks the matter isn't yet settled. He needs proof that that jus soli is a thing...
Birther: [Redacted Rant at my Aunt, the Owner of Facebook Page... then it's my turn...] Marisa just because you and your Aunt say it, doesn't make it so, so before you pat yourself on the back and grab the keys, can you actually produce some proof that that could actually happen because, in the real world it can't. Wait...I forgot...Libs have been running things for awhile and they have a habit of making new rules as they go to suit their purpose. [I see you covering your butt, trying to pretend that if you're wrong, it's only because the "Libs" made it that way recently] I find it real hard to believe that the framers intended things to be so a child who was born on foreign soil by American parents (almost like Obama ;oP) and brought here when they're a year old can't be President [McCain. Panama. You fail even harder now.] but a child who IS born here to illegal immigrant parents can be President. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Not sure what source he'll trust more than the constitution, which isn't enough... anyone got any ideas?
8^/
Addendum Two:Tell a man that he really needs to stop making arguments about "what the framers would have wanted" and deal with reality... and he decided you're trying to make things up as you go along, to fit what you feel is right... projection much?
Birther: Marisa the whole Constitution and it's arguments in the Supreme Court are based on what the Founders intended, much to the chagrin, of you Libs, because I know you folks feel you should be able to make stuff up as you go along to suit your ...purposes and whims. [Yes, I have no respect for the Consturution, which has been my sole cited souce thus far.] It doesn't work that way except in your world and that will end in January of 2012. It's only accepted as fact in your mind because I'd argue this is open for debate depending on who you ask. [Facts are not reached by consensus, so that you disbelieve it doesn't make it not fact.] The reason Right Wing pundits (like you said there are many) have such huge audiences is because they say what most people think. Ergo, most people, if put to a vote, would vote that children of illegal aliens should not be granted citizenship because the only people that benefits are Lib politicians who keep them poor their whole life for their votes. [What might happen if you tried to pass a law to change it, isn't relivant to what IS only what MAY BE in the future.] Incidently, in order for me to lose a bet or a wager, you have to have put something up and you haven't. I know you Libs like to get stuff for free from this President and his subjects without any cost to you from those who have things (and I don't have much) but in order to call it a bet, you have to run the risk of losing something which you clearly have not. [Ahhh yes, personal potshots. Yes, I'm just sitting here with my hand out never working. Not.] Also, the 14th Amendment clearly does not cover the subject of illegals having children in the US because there was not an immigration problem in 1868. Of course you'll argue that the Courts have ruled this and the Courts have ruled that but the truth is that Courts are so riddled with Liberals who, like I said before, make stuff up as they go to suit the people who put them there. that young people like you who have not yet suffered the consequences of the problems Liberals create that you believe your opinion to be the norm when it's not. A good example are all the issues that California Courts strike down that the people have voted for. [So... it's not true... except maybe it is, but if it is true, it doesn't count because the Libs are in power at the moment?]
And I'm pretty sure the Right Wingers are NOT in the majority, though they like to scream and shout and stomp their feet and claim they speak for everyone else. See also John Stewart's Rally to Restore Sanity, full of people who don't agree with the Teabagging nutbars screaming conspiracy every other moment.
8^/
Of course, the core portion of the argument has already been submitted to Failbook, though it'll be a few weeks before we know if it makes the front page like my Sketchy Bunny did... Go Vote for this Fail!!!
The expanded version of the argument however, can be read here, with commentary!!!!
So this all started in a comment thread on a link my Aunt posted about Obama releasing his long-form Birth Certificate, which of course, has got the Birthers all up in a tizzy... she argued with our lovely birther friend for a little while while he bleated about how Obama had somehow gotten into office without anyone ever checking it before now, and I joined in with a few choice words and a link to FactCheck.org... faced with the article there, he started on about how even if Obama WAS born in Hawaii, he's still not allowed to be president... due to his father... we now enter the argument in progress...
Birther: BTW...I guess the real issue is "Article 2, Section 1, Paragraph 5: "natural born citizen" is defined as born to American parents. Obama's father was a British subject of Kenya, not a 'naturalized' American."
[Don't know where he got this idea... maybe confusing the exemption for children of those with current diplomatic immunity?]
Mayo: Article Two, Section 1, Paragraph Five, in it's entirety: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
[Keep a digital copy of the Constitution on hand for arguing with Teabags? You bet I do!!!]
Birther: The President must be a natural born citizen of the United States, at least 35 years old and a resident of the United States for at least 14 years. An obsolete part of this clause provides that instead of being a natural born citizen, a person may be a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. The reason for this clause was to extend eligibility to Citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, regardless of their place of birth, who were born under the allegiance of a foreign sovereign before the founding of the United States. Without this clause, no one would have been eligible to be president until thirty-five years after the founding of the United States. The keys here being "at the time of the adoption of the Constitution" and "Without this clause, no one would have been eligible to be president until thirty-five years after the founding of the United States".
[I can only presume he's quoting some educational source that explains the constitution to those with reading comprehension problems.]
Mayo: Uh huh... and where in that paragraph does it say that that person's parents must be citizens?
Birther: Every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen. John Armor Bingham (principal framer of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution).
[Note that this is NOT a part of the Paragraph he just quoted at me above... I think he's missing quotes, and the end is an attribution.]
Mayo: Every child born within the United States jurisdiction, is a Natural Born Citizen. PERIOD.
Birther: Every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.
[Saying it twice... doesn't make it any more true. This time without the attribution I see...]
Mayo: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
[Hello 14th Amendment!!!!]
There were a few posts removed here, having to do with why this is a moot point because he's a just going to wait until 2012 and then remove Obama with prayer and his vote. They're not relevant to the argument since they're all about why the argument is moot. Then he picked up the argument again...
Birther: Your previous post has nothing to do with qualifications to become President otherwise every child born in the US to Illegal Alien parents would be eligible to be President and I can confidently say they are not.
[HAHAHAHHHHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!1!!!ONE!!! Ahem.... sorry... still makes me laugh.]
Mayo: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! *Finally gets done laughing.* Dude... children of illegal immigrants ARE Natural Born American Citizens!!!!! ANY child born on American soil, is a natural born American. Citizenship of the parents only matters if the kids are born outside the country.
Birther: Are they eligible to become President? I think not. Can't happen.
[Pssst... even the other Teabags know you're wrong. That's why they're trying to bring the 14th Amendment up for review.]
Mayo: Yup. They are. Assuming they live 14 years in the country before hand and are 35 years of age.
Birther: I'd bet my house they can't.
[JACKPOT!!!!]
Mayo: Oh wow. I'm getting me a house!!!
Birther: So you're saying if Hitler and Zsa Zsa Gabor had a love child in the US, this child when it grew up could become President of the US? I think the framers would have a whole lot to say about that. And it's really a condo. Sorry to get your hopes up.
[Go for the Godwin!!! Also... has he got a problem with Zsa Zsa Gabor, or has he forgotten Eva Braun's name?]
Mayo: To I have to take your mortgage too? I may not want it. But yes.. if the child were born on American Soil, and lived here for 14 years, and was 35 years of age, they would be eligible to be President. They'd have a hell of a time getting elected, but they'd be ELIGIBLE.
["My Father was Hitler" is kind of political suicide...]
Birther: Obama got elected so I guess anyone could.
[So did Bush... Twice...]
8^)
Addendum: Of course he won't pay up... though as I said above, I didn't expect him to, really... not with his Condo at least. It'd be nice to have some new toys, or some cash... but apparently he thinks the matter isn't yet settled. He needs proof that that jus soli is a thing...
Birther: [Redacted Rant at my Aunt, the Owner of Facebook Page... then it's my turn...] Marisa just because you and your Aunt say it, doesn't make it so, so before you pat yourself on the back and grab the keys, can you actually produce some proof that that could actually happen because, in the real world it can't. Wait...I forgot...Libs have been running things for awhile and they have a habit of making new rules as they go to suit their purpose. [I see you covering your butt, trying to pretend that if you're wrong, it's only because the "Libs" made it that way recently] I find it real hard to believe that the framers intended things to be so a child who was born on foreign soil by American parents (almost like Obama ;oP) and brought here when they're a year old can't be President [McCain. Panama. You fail even harder now.] but a child who IS born here to illegal immigrant parents can be President. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Not sure what source he'll trust more than the constitution, which isn't enough... anyone got any ideas?
8^/
Addendum Two:Tell a man that he really needs to stop making arguments about "what the framers would have wanted" and deal with reality... and he decided you're trying to make things up as you go along, to fit what you feel is right... projection much?
Birther: Marisa the whole Constitution and it's arguments in the Supreme Court are based on what the Founders intended, much to the chagrin, of you Libs, because I know you folks feel you should be able to make stuff up as you go along to suit your ...purposes and whims. [Yes, I have no respect for the Consturution, which has been my sole cited souce thus far.] It doesn't work that way except in your world and that will end in January of 2012. It's only accepted as fact in your mind because I'd argue this is open for debate depending on who you ask. [Facts are not reached by consensus, so that you disbelieve it doesn't make it not fact.] The reason Right Wing pundits (like you said there are many) have such huge audiences is because they say what most people think. Ergo, most people, if put to a vote, would vote that children of illegal aliens should not be granted citizenship because the only people that benefits are Lib politicians who keep them poor their whole life for their votes. [What might happen if you tried to pass a law to change it, isn't relivant to what IS only what MAY BE in the future.] Incidently, in order for me to lose a bet or a wager, you have to have put something up and you haven't. I know you Libs like to get stuff for free from this President and his subjects without any cost to you from those who have things (and I don't have much) but in order to call it a bet, you have to run the risk of losing something which you clearly have not. [Ahhh yes, personal potshots. Yes, I'm just sitting here with my hand out never working. Not.] Also, the 14th Amendment clearly does not cover the subject of illegals having children in the US because there was not an immigration problem in 1868. Of course you'll argue that the Courts have ruled this and the Courts have ruled that but the truth is that Courts are so riddled with Liberals who, like I said before, make stuff up as they go to suit the people who put them there. that young people like you who have not yet suffered the consequences of the problems Liberals create that you believe your opinion to be the norm when it's not. A good example are all the issues that California Courts strike down that the people have voted for. [So... it's not true... except maybe it is, but if it is true, it doesn't count because the Libs are in power at the moment?]
And I'm pretty sure the Right Wingers are NOT in the majority, though they like to scream and shout and stomp their feet and claim they speak for everyone else. See also John Stewart's Rally to Restore Sanity, full of people who don't agree with the Teabagging nutbars screaming conspiracy every other moment.
8^/