with their crooked stares
For the interested, jujuberry136 has good thoughts about those Season 6 Criminal Minds casting spoilers. Well, more like good rants. But I found them very articulate and thought-provoking and I agree with everything she said.
In her extremely excellent link round-up on the recent unfunny business, amazonziti said something in this thread (which is also an excellent ( Read more... )
In her extremely excellent link round-up on the recent unfunny business, amazonziti said something in this thread (which is also an excellent ( Read more... )
This is what people are taking away from the conversation. No; if you have not experienced it, don't write it uninformed. If you wanted to write a 911 call but you've never had occasion to call 911, won't you try to get information about how the call goes?
The reason this doesn't work both ways with fiction (to some degree) is because in most media the story is told from the POV of white men. We travel with them, we are told about their pains and struggles; we get to understand through the media what kind of life they lead. It's possible to write Sam or Dean in a mostly informed manner no matter what your personal background because you've become intimate with their lives. You're also intimately familiar with their mannerisms and personality so stereotyping is unlikely.
I write for a number of anime/manga and the characters in those stories are Japanese. Because we travel with the main characters and are familiar with their personalities/backgrounds/lives it's possible for me to write about them even though I'm not Japanese myself. I might get some facts wrong about life in Japan but I'm probably not going to stereotype the characters we've gotten to know.
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I still don't think her story was meant to be racist. Now, I do know "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" And we are not discussing her intentions but the result. I just think that what started as an offense taken by a few people was blown into a fandom wide public stoning. It could have been handled differently and should have. If we are hateful and bigoted towards White people or people from more privileged backgrounds does that not make us racist? What does our intolerance say about us?
That is what I got from most of the discussions that I read. I saw a solidarity being created based on "reverse racism/classism." People gave themselves permission to say things in the anon community that they would never say and sign their name. I posted there and left my LJ name because If I say it I stand behind it. Most were publicly calling her a racist and a person of privilege who could not possibly understand the "Black experience" Others were dissecting her apology. What is she supposed to do if she cannot even apologize?
This hatred and over the top behavior caused a polarization that forced a lot of people, including myself, to defend the author. This is being viewed as being sympathetic to the uninjured party. I really do not believe any injury was caused other than a few PoC, perhaps some liberal minded Whites and people of other races were offended and got pissed.
Someone becoming angry is not causing injury. People have a choice in how they react when confronted by something unpleasant. They have a choice to be offended or not to be but their reaction is not caused by the source it is their OWN reaction to a situation. It stems from their personal worldview. In this country if you get offended every time you are presented with racism it would be better to stay indoors. Racists have been coming out of the closet since Obama was elected President.
I really think it is time to put this issue to rest and move on. The story was removed. The author and artist both apologized at length. Basically, All I want to do is read some Dean/Cas and retreat from this discourse.
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If we are hateful and bigoted towards White people or people from more privileged backgrounds does that not make us racist? What does our intolerance say about us?
I understand what you're getting at: hatred directed at anyone, whether leveled in race-related epithets or not, is a bad thing. However, I think you're misunderstanding the term racist as it's being discussed here - not hatred, but bigotry that can only go one way. It's not an epithet, it's an observation: "that's racist. that springs out of a privileged viewpoint. that's offensive." In this context 'reverse racism' doesn't exist.
What is she supposed to do if she cannot even apologize? ... This is being viewed as being sympathetic to the uninjured party.
Her feelings have been hurt, no doubt; she's basically been yelled at in public, and so she's embarrassed and upset. But she produced a story that turned out to be 80K of kneeing PoC - in particular Haitians - in the groin first. If the kneejerk reaction is to yell at her in return and say, hey! Stop that! Kneeing people in the groin is wrong! ... Well, maybe she kneed them accidentally, she just wasn't watching where she was going, but the damage is still done. I think we can agree that the injured party is the person who was kneed in the groin. The person who did the injury might be embarrassed about it, but maybe next time she'll watch where she's going and won't accidentally knee someone else in the groin. And for that matter, maybe everyone who was watching will learn to watch where they are going so that they don't knee anyone in the groin.
Only it's much worse than accidentally kneeing somebody in the groin, because this deals with things like white privilege and a failure to empathize or understand how racism works.
The reason her apology is such a problem is because she's still saying 'I'm sorry your feelings are hurt' and not 'I'm sorry for what I did'. She has not learned how to apologize. I'm not here to point fingers at her, though: I have little doubt that if I were to have made the same fic, and have this all pointed out to me in such a dramatic manner, I would be curled up in a corner boohooing about my feelings and struggling to come to terms with the enormity of it. I'd like to think that eventually I'd come around and apologize for my actions, but I think I'd be much more likely to try to derail the conversation. So: she's not alone. But that doesn't make her right.
tbc
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If people feel like I am "sympathizing with the devil" which many do based on the hateful and sometimes threatening comments I have received I am sorry my lack of anger at this author is being perceived that way. Being the product of a mixed marriage and living in a position of privilege has probably skewed my viewpoint.
I have experienced racism. When my parents got married interracial marriage was illegal in most states. I have been called names, I was turned out of places to eat even with my mother when I was young because there were still "White Only" establishments. My great grandmother was a slave. I understand bigotry; and have experienced that as well.
Interestingly enough as I got older most of the hatred that was vented on me came from the Black community. I was set apart because I have light skin and straight hair. I was different because I spoke 5 languages and lived in a high income bracket. So perhaps my lashing out at the crusaders is MY knee jerk reaction to seeing some one attacked who really did not know better.
It is alright to be angry when you feel you have been attacked or your rights have been infringed upon. It is a perfectly legitimate reaction when you think someone has done something you perceive as racist to call them on it. However, it has gone way beyond that. Perhaps not here. But in other places I posted it has been very ugly. And once you become angry and inform the person that "Hey, that is a bit racist" And they don't feel they are racist what then? Why am I able to see beyond the mistake she made while everyone else is up in arms. Perhaps I AM wrong. Perhaps I AM a racist as well? I find that a bit odd as I am a PoC but I can find no other explanation for my lack of anger and my empathy for the author.
I understand your conviction and the points others have made as well. They as well as you, have a right to your opinions and the right for justifiable anger. I just think at some point you have to stop being angry and open a dialog that includes the person who made the mistake. If not how do we stop the cycle of misunderstanding? And I still maintain that someone who makes a huge faux pas like that is not necessarily a racist. Misinformed and misguided perhaps but not necessarily racist or I am thinking she would not have written about two White doctors helping in a Black nation.
I do not mind continuing this conversation. This has been the most insightful discussion I have had. No one else has approached me in the manner you have and I respect you for that. It must have been hard to hold back when my opinion was so full of emotion. I am going to go read all your links now and perhaps it will lead me to discover why I am not as bothered by this story as everyone else seems to be. Thank you for taking so much time to talk with me and If you have more to say I am willing to listen.
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I'm actually off to watch Toy Story 3, so please consider this a placeholder. I'll try to get back to you when I return from the movie.
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My lack of visceral reaction is based on two things. First, I identified more with the characters than the Haitian people and second I take the word fiction seriously and saw it as simply another story. I did not notice the lack of compassion others saw my only reaction was to the language. The dialect irritated me.
After reading that list in "white privilege" and recognizing so much of myself I was very surprised. Actually I was shocked and embarrassed. I am Black. We discuss racism in America all the time in my family but that numbered list was like a check list for me. And then with "A failure to empathize" I remembered the change to history books they are making in Texas and institutionalized racism. That careful, deliberate slant that White is right. And that anything good has been accomplished by White people. So knowing that, and the way the author was probably raised and the way I was raised is it any wonder that she was able to write that story or that I failed to see why people were so upset? No. And I understand why now.
This realization does not make me very happy. I am still torn because in my head I can see both sides of the issue so clearly. I understand the plight of Black Americans and of PoC world wide. I also empathize with the author for having made a terrible racial miscue. I look forward to your response as this issue is now plaguing me. I think talking with you has been the best thing to come out of this insanity of the last few days. I can tell you it has been more informative and better received than all the hate mail and threats. I have a lot to think about.
Aaliyah
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I'm glad to see that you have been having a productive conversation with vikki. She has said many things that I would have liked to say very clearly and articulately, and I'm very grateful that the two of you were able to connect here.
I know what you mean about seeing both sides of the issue. I have been reading and learning about racism and sexism and many other things for several years now, and it still surprises and humbles me how very, very much I still need to learn. If I had seen that story without someone pointing out how wrong it was, I might not have noticed, and that shames me. But I want to learn to be better at spotting these things for myself. The story might not have offended me personally, but that doesn't mean it's not offensive. It just means that I am in a position where I don't have to notice when such things are offensive, and it looks like maybe you are too, in some ways though not all. I have a lot to learn.
My experiences are very different than that of a person who has experienced racism. That is something I will never have to deal with, unless I travel or move to a country where the native population is prejudiced against white Americans (like Japan, for instance). And yet I do have my own experience of discrimination that I realized I can look to for a small comparison. I realized recently that I'm always waiting for someone to mention how fat I am. I am always expecting someone to make a remark about how I need to lose weight, or treat me like I'm stupid and unimportant because of my size, or speak to me condescendingly, or as if I'm a child, simply because of how I look. It's happened before and I keep expecting it to happen again. All the time, I'm waiting for it. And it's exhausting.
And I realized...this is what people in minorities deal with all the time, only it's even worse for them. They are waiting for someone to discriminate against them, to look down on them, to ignore them, to disparage them simply because of the color of their skin. They must be expecting it to happen all the time. How very wearying that must be. How it must eat away at your soul. I have only a glimmer of what that might be like and it's terrible.
So I can find nothing in me to blame people of color for their reactions to racism, no matter what they may be--angry or reasoned or withdrawing. No matter what. People who have been hurt deserve to do whatever they like with that hurt, and I will do my best to never be the one to hurt them.
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I remember your post about that doctor's office visit. And I remember thinking what an asshole! I comment you that day and I cried a bit remembering how it feels. I am also fat. I have dealt with that prejudice all my life. It has caused me to be picked on, lose or not get promotions or jobs and generally cause people to think it is alright to abuse me. People actually think nothing of their snide and crude remarks to obese people. I mean really? Do they really think I choose to have the fat gene. I have lost and gained hundreds of pounds over my lifetime and I always end up the same size. It is kismet. It has taken nearly 36 years but I have learned to just love myself and the people in my life and ignore the stares when I go to the mall. Do you know how hard it is going to be for me to post my pictures with Misha and Richard? Actually, I am sure you do.
I am glad Viki contacted me. Our conversation has been very insightful and productive. Thanks you for starting this thread and hosting us all on your journal to continue this discussion. Truthfully. I feel a WHOLE lot safer here than anywhere else I have been. It is not easy dealing with a massive spam attack of hate mail and threats. This conversation is much more productive and I have learned a lot. *smishes*
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It is a tough subject area and very sensitive to a lot of people and I am glad this was a safe place to have this discussion. Vikki made me feel very welcome with her well thought out responses and her links and I have a lot to consider being Black and confused.
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I think it's possible to fail to identify racism as racism whether you are of privilege or not, because the nature of racial privilege is so damn subversive - although it's certainly much easier for someone of privilege to fail to identify racism. lassiterfics is Indonesian but comes from a position of privilege in her home country: She talks about how privilege is not limited to white people here. In America having privilege means being white 99% of the time. =/
That careful, deliberate slant that White is right.
This is one of the parts I had the hardest time wrapping my mind around, because I wanted so hard to believe in being 'colorblind'. But encouraging everyone to be more 'white' and to be successful in the same way that privileged people are successful is a form of racism - one that is very well-intentioned indeed, but insulting nonetheless. :(
I just want you to know: I only started educating myself on this subject a few days ago. I honestly think that first dawning realization of 'oh crap, I actually think/live/exist this way and with these prejudices and advantages, how many people have I hurt?' is one of the hardest things I've ever had to contemplate. How much more, then, do the disenfranchised suffer and face every day? So I have no moral high ground from which on high I speak down to you. Er.
I am still torn because in my head I can see both sides of the issue so clearly. I understand the plight of Black Americans and of PoC world wide. I also empathize with the author for having made a terrible racial miscue.
A lot of the replies to this post address the idea that you have the right to your feelings/emotions. So, you absolutely have the right to empathize with the author here. I wouldn't hold her hurt feelings over the people she hurt first, personally; I think that's the misstep. And if you can't hold other people accountable for their feelings because they have a right to each and every one of them, then you cannot be responsible for changing them. The reason why so many people have probably gotten angry at you for saying 'think of the author!' is because in a discussion about racism, detracting from the initially wronged party (the disenfranchised/PoC) is considered derailment. And telling people to calm down and talk to the author rationally is the 'tone argument' linked elsewhere in this post.
It gets tricky, and I do agree that simply name-calling accomplishes nothing, but if the worst that happens to the author is that she's called a few bad words by anonymous people on the Internet that she will never meet, she's probably still suffered less than anyone angry enough to throw the insult. You have to think of her - and the next person that racefails (maybe me) as the millionth person that's done something racist within 'earshot'. Do you really feel like explaining calmly and rationally what the person has done wrong? Or would you rather throw a table at the person's head?
Admittedly people are more liberal with the throwing of tables on the internet than IRL, but that's true of everything. If we don't expect people to tone it down for a really stupid pairing war then why do we expect PoC to 'tone it down' for a conversation about racism and how it has personally hurt them?
Vikki
PS - thank you, maychorian, for bringing up this topic and for hosting this discussion in your LJ. :) I really appreciate it!
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As for what you said to me. I agree with you. This conversation has enlightened me and allowed me to see another side of myself that I have not noticed before. It is not very pretty but I have acknowledged it and can therefore work on it.
Your links were SO very helpful and you insights as well. As for the pairing wars and my charrie is better than your charrie , really? Just thinking of that makes my head want to explode. It is so second grade *LOL*
I steer clear of it. I don't begrudge anyone their kink/pairing/favorite character, as long as I can skip it.
I really hope that more people have entered into meaningful, educational discussions like we have. I think what got my mouth started before my brain kicked in was the hatred and terrible name calling and threats. To me that behavior was as bad as what the author did.
I am so glad that I met you here on my home girl's journal. I am adding you as a friend and hope to keep in contact. It has been a pleasure having this discussion with you and I thank you for being so knowledgeable and patient and approaching me with a hand extended in the spirit of trying to educate without hostility.
If you wish to chat further you can PM me or comment anything on my journal. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Aaliyah
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What amazonziti is saying in the above post is that she has a right to be angry and pissed off and not explain herself. Everyone has that right. Now I agree that someone won't learn if the subject matter isn't explained to them, but who says that the wronged person/group has to do the explaining, especially on a subject like racism? It's easy to educate yourself without ever leaving your computer screen.
Today my mom said that she snapped at a student because he was standing on his chair for the millionth time. Privileged people as a whole are that student, standing on his desk for the millionth time. It might be a different individual each time, but eventually the wronged people are going to snap at the privileged person. And since that privileged person is surrounded by places to read the rules (don't stand on the desk), the wronged people shouldn't have to explain for the millionth time why this is wrong, this is not okay, this is offensive.
Does that mean it's okay for someone to call the author a bad word? No. That's wrong, no matter what. But if someone wants to say, 'that's racist, no, I'm not going to explain it to you, figure it out', then she has the resources to do so.
I really think it is time to put this issue to rest and move on. The story was removed. The author and artist both apologized at length. Basically, All I want to do is read some Dean/Cas and retreat from this discourse.
And you have the right to retreat from this discourse. Do I think the issue should be 'laid to rest'? No. The 'issue' at hand is racism, not the fic or the author, and that should be discussed ad nauseam. Don't let it hide because of apathy.
I just educated myself on this so if I've messed up, please, anyone feel free to jump in and tell me. I'm far from learned! D= Even if it's just to tell me I need to go learn more.
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