Oh...this post makes me so sad. :( Matthew was maligned through S2, but I truly believe most of it wasn't his fault.
I'm going to leave your first point alone for a second, and address your second:
He does not want to marry her at the beginning of the Christmas Special, he wants to marry her in the end, when does it change?
I don't believe this is true at all. He wants to marry Mary in 2x08. He's probably ready to jump out of his chair and propose to her in 2x07 --when he hears she's still in love with him (after he's re-committed himself to Lavinia). The reason he's SO guilty for SO long about 2x08 was because he's desperately in love with Mary and Lavinia DIED basically because of it. He projects it onto the kiss, and his confession ("she heard, she saw") but I believe the main reason he beats himself up is because he got exactly what he wanted. Heck, he's practically informally proposing to Mary in 2x08. I mean, when he says "Give her the brush off when I was well again...however much I might want to?" That's clearly implying throw over Lavinia and marry Mary.
If you think about his wording at the gravesite, it's very deliberate. He doesn't say "I don't love you," or even "It was a mistake," it was "We can never be happy! We're cursed!" My goodness, "Let's be strong?" There's no need to be strong if he's perfectly content to be separated from Mary. But seriously it's "Let's be strong, because I love you so much and I can never EVER be with you because of what happened."
If you asked Matthew at the beginning of the CS, did he DESERVE to marry Mary, he'd say absolutely not, but did he WANT to? OF COURSE. He's just doing a variation of what she did throughout S2: making sure she's happy. He sees she's NOT happy with Carlisle -- he wants to do something about it. He wants her to be happy because he's so in love with her, he cannot STAND to see her UNhappy. And he assumes not only can he not be with her because he doesn't deserve it, but she wouldn't want to anyway -- because of what he said to her at the gravesite.
Why does he suggest that she should remain a spinster and live with him at Downton?
Oh my goodness, I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He's being adorably insane (which Mary at least recognizes) but he's so desperate for her happiness that he's just trying to assure her that she can live her life how she wants it. And if that means she just never wants to get married, she shouldn't get married. He wants her to be happy, and he knows Carlisle makes her UNhappy. He doesn't know what WOULD make her happy -- so he just throws out the idea that she could just stay here until she does. I think it's an unbelievably sweet line.
Why does he always doubt that she still loves him throughout series 2 when he was the one who ditched her in 1.07?
That's where we differ, I think...Matthew "ditched her" in 1x07 because he wasn't sure she loved him ENOUGH. He loved her, but when she couldn't accept his proposal he became unsure of her feelings and honestly, when he was leaving all she said was "Well, you can't have been so sure I was going to say no!" So, I think he believed she never loved him. And sure, it might've been obvious to all of us, because we SAW her cry in her room, but Matthew never did. Matthew saw a smiling Mary who talked excitedly about her upcoming happiness and was always cheerful and upbeat around him -- never once betraying her real emotions. He wasn't a mindreader, and to some extent, he saw what he wanted to see. But THAT's why he's so stunned in 2x07, when Violet says Mary is STILL in love with him. Because he's clearly never stopped loving Mary (just buried it and denied it for a really long time).
I actually feel like a lot of your questions can be answered if one accepts -- as I think the show wants us to or at least JF wants us to -- that Matthew has always loved Mary. He hasn't always been able to admit it, and I think he thought he had gotten over it, but it never, EVER went away. He has loved her since probably sometime in 1912 and he has NEVER STOPPED. And I think DS played it that way -- in a subtle, subconscious manner for most of S2.
I don't believe this is true at all. He wants to marry Mary in 2x08.
Hold your horses, Eolivet ;-) I haven't come to the 2.08 close read yet. To anticipate -- yes, he wants to marry her in 2.08. And whatever she says he reads as "I'm going to marry Carlisle!" HE IS CONVINCED. He's says to Lavinia "I don't want to hear this" because he wants to stop her from REMINDING HIM that he and Mary are perfect together. HE KNOWS THAT. 'Will you stop torturing me, woman? I CAN'T HAVE HER! She's going to marry Carlisle!'
The dance is an ARGUMENT with her! And she says 'Fine, let's go separate ways. I accept this.' The graveyard scene is part resignation that they get what they deserve by their stupid choices and that their engagement war has gone too far, but in part still an argument. He still wants her to contradict him. And she doesn't, in his opinion. She lets Carlisle walk her back to the house. She lets Carlisle win.
So he's given up trying at the beginning of the Christmas Special. That's what I mean when I say "He doesn't want to marry her" because he wouldn't bother to propose on his own account, unless she came back to him explicitly. Which she never would have done because she doesn't owe him anything. In the end, he is willing to ask her even though he isn't sure she'd have him.
Aww...you think so? :( I think it's a variation on "This is wrong." "Yes it is." "We shouldn't." "No, we shouldn't." :kiss:...trope.:p I believe when he starts to dance with Mary, it's to say goodbye...to give her up. And then once he dances with her, those "feelings beyond (his) control" just come pouring out. Because I think it's been in the abstract before, and when she says "We were a show that flopped" it occurs to him that...this really is the end. ("Oh God, Mary -- I am so, so sorry.") And then, before he can stop himself, he's bringing up how "Cousin Violet came to me -- told me to marry you," and how much he wants to...
And she doesn't really...argue, IMO. Just kind of...deflects ("Don't be." "When was this?" "What did you say?" "Of course not." "Absolutely not.")
He still wants her to contradict him. And she doesn't, in his opinion.
Interesting. I'm not sure what Matthew thinks of Mary's response to what he says. I know Mary for sure believes everything Matthew says, so if he says it's the end...it's the end. I think she believes it, I think she thinks he believes it. I guess she COULD say "No, we can be happy, no we're not cursed" but...she still can't break with Carlisle, and when she finds out Lavinia heard and saw everything, and that Matthew has now decreed THAT is what killed Lavinia, there is kind of...no argument to that. Because she was a part of that, she kissed him back...and if he's holding her responsible, then she's responsible. Mary doesn't have the self-worth to stand up for herself. I don't know if Matthew knows this or not. Matthew thinks Mary is the sun, the moon and the stars so...maybe he doesn't realize what affect his words have on her. :(
Which she never would have done because she doesn't owe him anything.
Awww. :( Well, she never would've done because she was engaged to Carlisle and felt she HAD to marry Carlisle because she had no other option. It's interesting that JF had Mary explicitly LEAVING -- I sort of feel like that forced Matthew's hand. It forced him to recognize he didn't want to live life without Mary. Makes you wonder if he would've been so...not hasty but...impulsive had Mary just been prepared to stay at DA. Hmmmm....
Which she never would have done because she doesn't owe him anything.
Awww. :(
Don't forget one aspect though: The fact that Mary would never admit to loving a man who preferred someone else over her. I think that has always been a big issue in series 2, and it isn't resolved until the CS.
Remember 2.07: SIR RICHARD CARLISLE All right, then. I will. Once and for all, are you still in love with Matthew Crawley? LADY MARY Of course not. Would I ever admit to loving a man who preferred someone else over me?
As long as Matthew was in any way hung up about Lavinia, he was no option for Mary, and thus no alternative to Carlisle (even though Matthew might have failed to realise that). She was too proud to fight for a man, and I can't blame her, really. And as long as Matthew woos her by telling her that he prefers Lavinia over her despite himself (indirectly criticizing her for not doing what Lavinia had done), Mary doesn't really see the point of having those arguments with Matthew. Then Lavinia would sort-of be his ex and he would always bring her up when he's angry with Mary. I don't think Mary would have wanted a relationship with a guy like that.
I'm going to leave your first point alone for a second, and address your second:
He does not want to marry her at the beginning of the Christmas Special, he wants to marry her in the end, when does it change?
I don't believe this is true at all. He wants to marry Mary in 2x08. He's probably ready to jump out of his chair and propose to her in 2x07 --when he hears she's still in love with him (after he's re-committed himself to Lavinia). The reason he's SO guilty for SO long about 2x08 was because he's desperately in love with Mary and Lavinia DIED basically because of it. He projects it onto the kiss, and his confession ("she heard, she saw") but I believe the main reason he beats himself up is because he got exactly what he wanted. Heck, he's practically informally proposing to Mary in 2x08. I mean, when he says "Give her the brush off when I was well again...however much I might want to?" That's clearly implying throw over Lavinia and marry Mary.
If you think about his wording at the gravesite, it's very deliberate. He doesn't say "I don't love you," or even "It was a mistake," it was "We can never be happy! We're cursed!" My goodness, "Let's be strong?" There's no need to be strong if he's perfectly content to be separated from Mary. But seriously it's "Let's be strong, because I love you so much and I can never EVER be with you because of what happened."
If you asked Matthew at the beginning of the CS, did he DESERVE to marry Mary, he'd say absolutely not, but did he WANT to? OF COURSE. He's just doing a variation of what she did throughout S2: making sure she's happy. He sees she's NOT happy with Carlisle -- he wants to do something about it. He wants her to be happy because he's so in love with her, he cannot STAND to see her UNhappy. And he assumes not only can he not be with her because he doesn't deserve it, but she wouldn't want to anyway -- because of what he said to her at the gravesite.
Why does he suggest that she should remain a spinster and live with him at Downton?
Oh my goodness, I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He's being adorably insane (which Mary at least recognizes) but he's so desperate for her happiness that he's just trying to assure her that she can live her life how she wants it. And if that means she just never wants to get married, she shouldn't get married. He wants her to be happy, and he knows Carlisle makes her UNhappy. He doesn't know what WOULD make her happy -- so he just throws out the idea that she could just stay here until she does. I think it's an unbelievably sweet line.
Why does he always doubt that she still loves him throughout series 2 when he was the one who ditched her in 1.07?
That's where we differ, I think...Matthew "ditched her" in 1x07 because he wasn't sure she loved him ENOUGH. He loved her, but when she couldn't accept his proposal he became unsure of her feelings and honestly, when he was leaving all she said was "Well, you can't have been so sure I was going to say no!" So, I think he believed she never loved him. And sure, it might've been obvious to all of us, because we SAW her cry in her room, but Matthew never did. Matthew saw a smiling Mary who talked excitedly about her upcoming happiness and was always cheerful and upbeat around him -- never once betraying her real emotions. He wasn't a mindreader, and to some extent, he saw what he wanted to see. But THAT's why he's so stunned in 2x07, when Violet says Mary is STILL in love with him. Because he's clearly never stopped loving Mary (just buried it and denied it for a really long time).
I actually feel like a lot of your questions can be answered if one accepts -- as I think the show wants us to or at least JF wants us to -- that Matthew has always loved Mary. He hasn't always been able to admit it, and I think he thought he had gotten over it, but it never, EVER went away. He has loved her since probably sometime in 1912 and he has NEVER STOPPED. And I think DS played it that way -- in a subtle, subconscious manner for most of S2.
That's how I see it anyway. :)
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Hold your horses, Eolivet ;-) I haven't come to the 2.08 close read yet. To anticipate -- yes, he wants to marry her in 2.08. And whatever she says he reads as "I'm going to marry Carlisle!" HE IS CONVINCED. He's says to Lavinia "I don't want to hear this" because he wants to stop her from REMINDING HIM that he and Mary are perfect together. HE KNOWS THAT. 'Will you stop torturing me, woman? I CAN'T HAVE HER! She's going to marry Carlisle!'
The dance is an ARGUMENT with her! And she says 'Fine, let's go separate ways. I accept this.' The graveyard scene is part resignation that they get what they deserve by their stupid choices and that their engagement war has gone too far, but in part still an argument. He still wants her to contradict him. And she doesn't, in his opinion. She lets Carlisle walk her back to the house. She lets Carlisle win.
So he's given up trying at the beginning of the Christmas Special. That's what I mean when I say "He doesn't want to marry her" because he wouldn't bother to propose on his own account, unless she came back to him explicitly. Which she never would have done because she doesn't owe him anything. In the end, he is willing to ask her even though he isn't sure she'd have him.
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Aww...you think so? :( I think it's a variation on "This is wrong." "Yes it is." "We shouldn't." "No, we shouldn't." :kiss:...trope.:p I believe when he starts to dance with Mary, it's to say goodbye...to give her up. And then once he dances with her, those "feelings beyond (his) control" just come pouring out. Because I think it's been in the abstract before, and when she says "We were a show that flopped" it occurs to him that...this really is the end. ("Oh God, Mary -- I am so, so sorry.") And then, before he can stop himself, he's bringing up how "Cousin Violet came to me -- told me to marry you," and how much he wants to...
And she doesn't really...argue, IMO. Just kind of...deflects ("Don't be." "When was this?" "What did you say?" "Of course not." "Absolutely not.")
He still wants her to contradict him. And she doesn't, in his opinion.
Interesting. I'm not sure what Matthew thinks of Mary's response to what he says. I know Mary for sure believes everything Matthew says, so if he says it's the end...it's the end. I think she believes it, I think she thinks he believes it. I guess she COULD say "No, we can be happy, no we're not cursed" but...she still can't break with Carlisle, and when she finds out Lavinia heard and saw everything, and that Matthew has now decreed THAT is what killed Lavinia, there is kind of...no argument to that. Because she was a part of that, she kissed him back...and if he's holding her responsible, then she's responsible. Mary doesn't have the self-worth to stand up for herself. I don't know if Matthew knows this or not. Matthew thinks Mary is the sun, the moon and the stars so...maybe he doesn't realize what affect his words have on her. :(
Which she never would have done because she doesn't owe him anything.
Awww. :( Well, she never would've done because she was engaged to Carlisle and felt she HAD to marry Carlisle because she had no other option. It's interesting that JF had Mary explicitly LEAVING -- I sort of feel like that forced Matthew's hand. It forced him to recognize he didn't want to live life without Mary. Makes you wonder if he would've been so...not hasty but...impulsive had Mary just been prepared to stay at DA. Hmmmm....
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Awww. :(
Don't forget one aspect though: The fact that Mary would never admit to loving a man who preferred someone else over her. I think that has always been a big issue in series 2, and it isn't resolved until the CS.
Remember 2.07:
SIR RICHARD CARLISLE
All right, then. I will. Once and for all, are you still in love with Matthew Crawley?
LADY MARY
Of course not. Would I ever admit to loving a man who preferred someone else over me?
As long as Matthew was in any way hung up about Lavinia, he was no option for Mary, and thus no alternative to Carlisle (even though Matthew might have failed to realise that). She was too proud to fight for a man, and I can't blame her, really. And as long as Matthew woos her by telling her that he prefers Lavinia over her despite himself (indirectly criticizing her for not doing what Lavinia had done), Mary doesn't really see the point of having those arguments with Matthew. Then Lavinia would sort-of be his ex and he would always bring her up when he's angry with Mary. I don't think Mary would have wanted a relationship with a guy like that.
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