Some thoughts on your questions...
anonymous
March 2 2010, 01:53:43 UTC
I am a supporter of legalized abortion. That said, I do not take the process lightly and I believe that those who do either do not understand how it works or have not given it much thought. I can think of few worse burdens to carry than that of a pregnant woman considering an abortion.
I support abortion in cases of necessity and extenuating circumstance. For example, if there is a high risk of maternal death during labour, it would be prudent to save her. I also believe that in cases of rape, especially rape by a relative, and other in cases in which there is appreciable support for the belief that the embryo will find greater peace in death than in life, abortion may be the more humane choice. Needless to say, I also support the principles of euthanasia.
Moral questions aside, criminalizing abortion would be the wrong choice. Abortions will continue to happen, particularly in poverty-stricken countries in which parents cannot feed or protect their children. Without designated medical clinics, women will turn to back-alley doctors or will attempt to do it themselves. Deaths due to botched abortions are extremely common in these countries.
I cannot say that legalizing abortion does not potentially open the door for "convenience-related" abortions, but the proportion of cases would be small. The decision to abort a pregnancy is one that will follow you all the days of your life.
Re: Some thoughts on your questions...marset617March 2 2010, 08:17:11 UTC
The difference between abortion and euthanasia is that with euthanasia, the individual chooses to die.
Hypothetical scenario: you're living in poverty, you've been abused and neglected and you're dirty and hungry. Your best friend comes to you one day and says, "I love you, man, and I don't want to see you suffer." Then he shoots you in the head. Did he do the right thing?
I maintain that it would be better to allow you to make that choice for yourself.
And in the case of mother's health, it's not considered abortion. Because abortion is the termination of the fetus to effect the end of a pregnancy, whereas in cases of risk to the mother's health, the fetus's death is an unintended but foreseeable result of the treatment (ie, removing the fallopian tube in the case of ectopic pregnancy... the embryo has no chance of survival, but would be saved if possible). These cases are currently treated in hospitals, not abortion clinics, and are not considered abortions.
As for your argument that abortion will always happen so criminalizing it would be wrong, I could argue that rape or murder will always exist. Does that make it something that should not be criminalized? I maintain that the laws should revert to pre-Roe v. Wade status. The doctor, and not the mother, is legally culpable in the case of illegal abortions.
Are you aware that over 70% of women obtaining abortions claimed that they would not seek the abortions were they to become illegal, according to a study by the Guttmacher Institute (the research arm of Planned Parenthood)? Or that nearly 50% (I think it was 47%??) of women obtaining abortions had at least one previous abortion according to that same study?
Re: Some thoughts on your questions...luquillaMarch 2 2010, 08:40:17 UTC
I honestly try to stay out of the debate in general because I have conflicted feelings on it (and also it makes me feel really anxious), but I will say this:
What about the 30% of mothers who would still have an abortion if it was illegal? Or who would simply choose to kill themselves?
I think that it's sad that people use abortion as anything less than a last resort (and they do, and it's horrible), but I think the solution to that is to better educate people about contraception to help prevent situations where abortions are even an option. We've pushed ourselves into a black-or-white corner in some ways. But that is another debate, I think.
VVV Also, the slavery comparison is a bit of a strawman.
Re: Some thoughts on your questions...marset617March 2 2010, 23:11:05 UTC
Well, what about the percentage of men who continue to rape though it's illegal? Or to murder? They know the dangers to themselves, but they choose to engage in the activity, and they legally must accept the consequences. Also, I said over 70%... I am trying to find the exact number now, but it was high. I would find it sad if the rates of maternal death in abortion-related incidents went up, as it likely would, particularly initially. That doesn't make abortion right or okay though, and it doesn't make it okay for our government to sanction abortion.
Abortion is a violation of the rights of a group of people, so the slavery comparison is apt, although it makes people cringe. Slaves weren't seen as fully human beings, or as persons, certainly not legally, prior to Dread Scot. Unborn humans aren't seen as persons. And it crippled plantation owners when they had to allow their slaves to go free.... So where's the strawman there? The difference is, we haven't had a Dread Scot type situation with abortion. But that's what I'm working towards.
And to be honest, I don't think contraception education is *as* big of a deal as letting women know that having a child doesn't end your life. We as women are fed the lie that we can never be good enough parents, and we won't be ready until we're wealthy successful women. Guess what? You won't probably be ready for kids then, either. We need to stop stigmatizing PREGNANCY, not abortion! Is it ideal for a 16-yr-old out of a relationship to get pregnant? Of course not! Is it the absolute end of her life if she gives birth to that child? No! but we seem to be constantly told that it IS.
Personally, I'm a big supporter of properly teaching young ladies about body changes around ovulation (hormonal changes, temperature spiking, fluid secretion changes, etc.) not for pregnancy planning reasons, but for the knowledge of the body! I believe it would help also with pregnancy rates, but I'm also ALL ABOUT getting KNOWLEDGE out there. And that's something that I feel would be easily added to sex ed classes and would give young ladies a sense of control & knowledge about their bodies.
Re: Some thoughts on your questions...luquillaMarch 3 2010, 01:17:13 UTC
I'm bowing out now for my own inability to remain calm about the issue. Sorry MR.
I will say that you don't really sound like you want people's opinions, and you don't really sound like you're keeping your emotions from the discussion (rapists and murderers? Really?). That's okay, and I think you're allowed to do that on such an emotional issue, but I feel a little drawn in.
Re: Some thoughts on your questions...marset617March 3 2010, 05:42:27 UTC
I understand that it sounds like I'm getting emotional about the issue, but to be honest, I've come to the conclusion quite a while ago that abortion is a matter of intentionally killing innocent humans, and I don't distinguish it from murder. So while I may *sound* emotional, I'm actually rather calm and somewhat detached in this instance. I'm trying to make a comparison, but because the idea of abortion is so accepted in our society, it's a difficult premise to accept.
But really, if you consider an unborn human to be a person, what's the distinction between abortion and murder?
It comes down to information for me. Women (and men) just don't have enough of it. They don't intend to kill people, generally speaking, but I believe that they are allowing the murder of their infant children, which is tragic. How many people have ever seen a picture of a 6 week old embryo? Of those who haven't, how many have aborted?
Please understand that I have great love and sorrow for women who have experienced abortion, both those who do and do not regret it.
I understand feeling like bowing out, and I apologize for making you feel as though I was getting emotional.
Re: Some thoughts on your questions...marset617March 3 2010, 05:48:00 UTC
Also, if it makes it less offensive, I could go with something like, what about the people who OD on illegal narcotics? If the narcotics were legal, they would be more likely to seek medical care, but does that make it our government's responsibility to legalize narcotics? Even if more people die from OD'ing when narcotics are illegal than when they're legal?
I support abortion in cases of necessity and extenuating circumstance. For example, if there is a high risk of maternal death during labour, it would be prudent to save her. I also believe that in cases of rape, especially rape by a relative, and other in cases in which there is appreciable support for the belief that the embryo will find greater peace in death than in life, abortion may be the more humane choice. Needless to say, I also support the principles of euthanasia.
Moral questions aside, criminalizing abortion would be the wrong choice. Abortions will continue to happen, particularly in poverty-stricken countries in which parents cannot feed or protect their children. Without designated medical clinics, women will turn to back-alley doctors or will attempt to do it themselves. Deaths due to botched abortions are extremely common in these countries.
I cannot say that legalizing abortion does not potentially open the door for "convenience-related" abortions, but the proportion of cases would be small. The decision to abort a pregnancy is one that will follow you all the days of your life.
Reply
Hypothetical scenario: you're living in poverty, you've been abused and neglected and you're dirty and hungry. Your best friend comes to you one day and says, "I love you, man, and I don't want to see you suffer." Then he shoots you in the head. Did he do the right thing?
I maintain that it would be better to allow you to make that choice for yourself.
And in the case of mother's health, it's not considered abortion. Because abortion is the termination of the fetus to effect the end of a pregnancy, whereas in cases of risk to the mother's health, the fetus's death is an unintended but foreseeable result of the treatment (ie, removing the fallopian tube in the case of ectopic pregnancy... the embryo has no chance of survival, but would be saved if possible). These cases are currently treated in hospitals, not abortion clinics, and are not considered abortions.
As for your argument that abortion will always happen so criminalizing it would be wrong, I could argue that rape or murder will always exist. Does that make it something that should not be criminalized? I maintain that the laws should revert to pre-Roe v. Wade status. The doctor, and not the mother, is legally culpable in the case of illegal abortions.
Are you aware that over 70% of women obtaining abortions claimed that they would not seek the abortions were they to become illegal, according to a study by the Guttmacher Institute (the research arm of Planned Parenthood)? Or that nearly 50% (I think it was 47%??) of women obtaining abortions had at least one previous abortion according to that same study?
Reply
What about the 30% of mothers who would still have an abortion if it was illegal? Or who would simply choose to kill themselves?
I think that it's sad that people use abortion as anything less than a last resort (and they do, and it's horrible), but I think the solution to that is to better educate people about contraception to help prevent situations where abortions are even an option. We've pushed ourselves into a black-or-white corner in some ways. But that is another debate, I think.
VVV Also, the slavery comparison is a bit of a strawman.
Reply
Abortion is a violation of the rights of a group of people, so the slavery comparison is apt, although it makes people cringe. Slaves weren't seen as fully human beings, or as persons, certainly not legally, prior to Dread Scot. Unborn humans aren't seen as persons. And it crippled plantation owners when they had to allow their slaves to go free.... So where's the strawman there? The difference is, we haven't had a Dread Scot type situation with abortion. But that's what I'm working towards.
And to be honest, I don't think contraception education is *as* big of a deal as letting women know that having a child doesn't end your life. We as women are fed the lie that we can never be good enough parents, and we won't be ready until we're wealthy successful women. Guess what? You won't probably be ready for kids then, either. We need to stop stigmatizing PREGNANCY, not abortion! Is it ideal for a 16-yr-old out of a relationship to get pregnant? Of course not! Is it the absolute end of her life if she gives birth to that child? No! but we seem to be constantly told that it IS.
Personally, I'm a big supporter of properly teaching young ladies about body changes around ovulation (hormonal changes, temperature spiking, fluid secretion changes, etc.) not for pregnancy planning reasons, but for the knowledge of the body! I believe it would help also with pregnancy rates, but I'm also ALL ABOUT getting KNOWLEDGE out there. And that's something that I feel would be easily added to sex ed classes and would give young ladies a sense of control & knowledge about their bodies.
Reply
I will say that you don't really sound like you want people's opinions, and you don't really sound like you're keeping your emotions from the discussion (rapists and murderers? Really?). That's okay, and I think you're allowed to do that on such an emotional issue, but I feel a little drawn in.
Anyway, cheers.
Reply
But really, if you consider an unborn human to be a person, what's the distinction between abortion and murder?
It comes down to information for me. Women (and men) just don't have enough of it. They don't intend to kill people, generally speaking, but I believe that they are allowing the murder of their infant children, which is tragic. How many people have ever seen a picture of a 6 week old embryo? Of those who haven't, how many have aborted?
Please understand that I have great love and sorrow for women who have experienced abortion, both those who do and do not regret it.
I understand feeling like bowing out, and I apologize for making you feel as though I was getting emotional.
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