Bras and feminism, cont'd
Thanks to everyone who commented on my post about bra-wearing, feminism, and related concepts a couple of weeks ago. ( Here's the link in case you missed it or want to review. ;) ) I wanted to do a followup post on some of the issues that came up.
A lot of you made comments to the effect of, "feminism means you get to wear whatever you want," and the thing is, first of all, not exactly; and second of all, kind of missing the point.
Remember, the whole thing got started when I saw a post on my flist saying that women like me shouldn't go out in public without bras. When I see something like that, my first reaction is "Screw that, I'll wear what I want." (That's the feminism talking, of course. Go feminism! ;) ) My second reaction is to get self-conscious. And my third reaction is to analyze my first two reactions. And that's where the post came from: it was me "thinking out loud" about how I reacted to that entry and what my feelings meant, and so forth.
So, when I wrote in that post questions like "Am I still a feminist if I want to wear a bra? Am I still a feminist if I care what people think of my appearance?" that was not intended to convey that I am seriously questioning my feminist cred, or that you should reassure me on those points. ;) Really, I'm quite secure in my feminist nature. Rather, it was sort of a depiction of how my thought process goes, and the issues that I think about when I try to sort out my feelings on this stuff.
The key point I was trying to make in my post was something I had some trouble articulating, but finally managed to get out in one of my comments there. I wrote: "There's an implication that it "goes without saying" that a woman "must" wear a bra when she goes out in public. I disagree really strongly with that. And I think this is a case where more people need to be questioning. Because it's not really just about an undergarment, but about standards of appearance for women, and by implication, standards of behavior for women." This is what it really comes down to for me, and this is why I can't be satisfied with "feminism means you can wear what you want." Because yeah, I can wear what I want -- but if I'm being judged for it, ESPECIALLY by other women, then feminism still has a lot of work to do.
Why do I say that this is about standards of behavior for women? It's the implication that when a woman prepares to go out in public, for any purpose, her primary concern should be to make herself as attractive as possible. As always with sexism, it's not about what the woman wants or how she feels, but how others feel when they see her. It's the subtext that she has a "duty" to look attractive, and that means wearing a bra because "no one wants to see that," where "that" is what normal 35-year-old boobs look like. Listen, if "that" were two men holding hands, or a black person using the same restroom as a white person, we would all agree that "no one wants to see that" is an offensive and unacceptable attitude. Why don't we feel the same when "that" is braless boobs? The implication that a woman "should" wear a bra when she's out in public is by extension the implication that her body is for others to look at first, and for her own comfort and enjoyment a distant second, if at all. I really strongly object to that.
So that's really the primary concept that I was trying, albeit clumsily, to convey in my original post. It's a feminist issue to me not because it's about telling women what to wear, per se, but because it's about damaging attitudes towards women's bodies.
Also, on a lesser note: as I tried to convey in my previous post, "what I want to wear" is not necessarily always straightforward. For example, in the hot weather we've been having lately, I usually hate the idea of putting on an "extra" garment...but then if I don't wear a bra, I have hot sweaty boobs resting on a hot sweaty ribcage, which is really uncomfortable. (Those of you women reading this who are of the small-boobed persuasion may not be familiar with this sensation -- I know I never was until after I had kids -- so just trust me, it's unpleasant.) Also, a bra absorbs the sweat, reducing the discomfort of having sweaty boobs; on the other hand, then you're wearing a sweaty bra. Or, in a more complex example, sometimes I'm in a "no-bra" kind of mood, but then I look in the mirror and feel that this particular top would really look better if I had a bra on under it; and I know that if I go out in public without it, I risk feeling self-conscious. In those moments it can be really hard for me to decide what to do. So, it's really not quite so simple as "wear what you want."
Also, I sort of muddied the waters by bringing up the job-interview situation, which is of course a whole different beast from the regular going-out-in-public situation (e.g. to drop off/pick up kids at school etc.). Obviously, in a job interview, you can't "wear whatever you want," at least not if you actually want the job! In this situation the interplay between sexism, feminism, and societal standards is even more complex. Is there a double standard in terms of how women are expected to dress for job interviews vs. how men are? Maybe. Certainly I doubt that a man in an office-job interview is judged based on what undergarments he is or isn't wearing! At the same time, all job applicants regardless of gender are expected to be clean, neatly groomed, dressed professionally, and so forth. So, it's complicated. And I'm not going into that right now, because this post is long enough already ;) and because it's a side issue anyway.
The bottom line, for me, is that we can't get too complacent about where we are as feminists in this day and age. It may be the year 2009, and yes we have come a long way baby, but it's as important as always -- or more so! -- to keep these issues in our thoughts, and to talk about them when they come up, and not let them go by unchallenged.
A lot of you made comments to the effect of, "feminism means you get to wear whatever you want," and the thing is, first of all, not exactly; and second of all, kind of missing the point.
Remember, the whole thing got started when I saw a post on my flist saying that women like me shouldn't go out in public without bras. When I see something like that, my first reaction is "Screw that, I'll wear what I want." (That's the feminism talking, of course. Go feminism! ;) ) My second reaction is to get self-conscious. And my third reaction is to analyze my first two reactions. And that's where the post came from: it was me "thinking out loud" about how I reacted to that entry and what my feelings meant, and so forth.
So, when I wrote in that post questions like "Am I still a feminist if I want to wear a bra? Am I still a feminist if I care what people think of my appearance?" that was not intended to convey that I am seriously questioning my feminist cred, or that you should reassure me on those points. ;) Really, I'm quite secure in my feminist nature. Rather, it was sort of a depiction of how my thought process goes, and the issues that I think about when I try to sort out my feelings on this stuff.
The key point I was trying to make in my post was something I had some trouble articulating, but finally managed to get out in one of my comments there. I wrote: "There's an implication that it "goes without saying" that a woman "must" wear a bra when she goes out in public. I disagree really strongly with that. And I think this is a case where more people need to be questioning. Because it's not really just about an undergarment, but about standards of appearance for women, and by implication, standards of behavior for women." This is what it really comes down to for me, and this is why I can't be satisfied with "feminism means you can wear what you want." Because yeah, I can wear what I want -- but if I'm being judged for it, ESPECIALLY by other women, then feminism still has a lot of work to do.
Why do I say that this is about standards of behavior for women? It's the implication that when a woman prepares to go out in public, for any purpose, her primary concern should be to make herself as attractive as possible. As always with sexism, it's not about what the woman wants or how she feels, but how others feel when they see her. It's the subtext that she has a "duty" to look attractive, and that means wearing a bra because "no one wants to see that," where "that" is what normal 35-year-old boobs look like. Listen, if "that" were two men holding hands, or a black person using the same restroom as a white person, we would all agree that "no one wants to see that" is an offensive and unacceptable attitude. Why don't we feel the same when "that" is braless boobs? The implication that a woman "should" wear a bra when she's out in public is by extension the implication that her body is for others to look at first, and for her own comfort and enjoyment a distant second, if at all. I really strongly object to that.
So that's really the primary concept that I was trying, albeit clumsily, to convey in my original post. It's a feminist issue to me not because it's about telling women what to wear, per se, but because it's about damaging attitudes towards women's bodies.
Also, on a lesser note: as I tried to convey in my previous post, "what I want to wear" is not necessarily always straightforward. For example, in the hot weather we've been having lately, I usually hate the idea of putting on an "extra" garment...but then if I don't wear a bra, I have hot sweaty boobs resting on a hot sweaty ribcage, which is really uncomfortable. (Those of you women reading this who are of the small-boobed persuasion may not be familiar with this sensation -- I know I never was until after I had kids -- so just trust me, it's unpleasant.) Also, a bra absorbs the sweat, reducing the discomfort of having sweaty boobs; on the other hand, then you're wearing a sweaty bra. Or, in a more complex example, sometimes I'm in a "no-bra" kind of mood, but then I look in the mirror and feel that this particular top would really look better if I had a bra on under it; and I know that if I go out in public without it, I risk feeling self-conscious. In those moments it can be really hard for me to decide what to do. So, it's really not quite so simple as "wear what you want."
Also, I sort of muddied the waters by bringing up the job-interview situation, which is of course a whole different beast from the regular going-out-in-public situation (e.g. to drop off/pick up kids at school etc.). Obviously, in a job interview, you can't "wear whatever you want," at least not if you actually want the job! In this situation the interplay between sexism, feminism, and societal standards is even more complex. Is there a double standard in terms of how women are expected to dress for job interviews vs. how men are? Maybe. Certainly I doubt that a man in an office-job interview is judged based on what undergarments he is or isn't wearing! At the same time, all job applicants regardless of gender are expected to be clean, neatly groomed, dressed professionally, and so forth. So, it's complicated. And I'm not going into that right now, because this post is long enough already ;) and because it's a side issue anyway.
The bottom line, for me, is that we can't get too complacent about where we are as feminists in this day and age. It may be the year 2009, and yes we have come a long way baby, but it's as important as always -- or more so! -- to keep these issues in our thoughts, and to talk about them when they come up, and not let them go by unchallenged.