Some (more) thoughts on God and Suffering
My friend recently raised the question of why God let the Israelites suffer in slavery for 400 years before rescuing them. God did tell Abraham basically what would happen, but I don't think that means there were no other reasons. My immediate suggestion would be that the text indicates that the Israelites didn't cry out to God till then, since it
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What is God's motivation for trying to win back the people? Why is that important to God? I guess I'm asking because in my mind, a "perfect" God doesn't really need anything. Yes, it could sound a little narcissistic that God need something, that He needs the people to return to him. How do you resolve that?
A little off topic, but another question I have. If God is perfect, in my mind, that means God is whole. God is complete. God needs nothing. He has everything. God is not lacking in any way, in capacity or ability. That would be perfect. So, if God is perfect, why would there be angels? Why would God need help with anything? Is there really something God could not do that he needs help for? Would a "perfect" God get lonely? Why, when people die, do people say that "God needed them"? Do you believe that? Does God need people? Does God need anything? How could God need something if He's God?
I've thought of the parent analogy as well. But I thought of it differently. If God is perfect, and this world, this life, is the most selfless thing a loving God can do, for me, that entails that God does not expect anything in return. If he did, it wouldn't be completely selfless. That's why it's hard for me to take the "rules" seriously. If I gave some kid a gift, a toy, just for the sake of giving it to him, for him, without expecting anything back, why would I care how he plays with it as long as he's happy? If he thanks me that's great, but I just want him to play with the toy. In fact, I think the *perfect* thing the kid could do with it would be to share it with someone else, because he would have learned the joy of giving to someone else. But I don't need him to thank me for the toy every time I come over, he just needs to enjoy it.
More random notes. Depending on the translation, when God is unleashing the plagues on the Egyptians for not freeing the Israelites, it either says that "God hardens the Pharaoh's heart," or "the Pharaoh's heart was hardened." Which way do you read it? If it's the former, why would God "harden his heart?" If God is all knowing, why does he bother wasting time with 9 plagues that he knows will not work?
I think I'll leave you with that for now. Thanks again.
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I suppose I don't see perfection as meaning independence, exactly. I think the nature of the world says something about the nature of God, particularly that human beings are not independent at all. We have to be born into families, and families pretty naturally group into communities, etc. Not to mention that our psychological/emotional make-up seems hardwired, in general, to seek identity and affirmation in relationships. I think this is what is beautiful about the Christian picture of the Trinity. I see God as inherently relational, as humans are inherently relational. There is a sense of independence in the the idea that God in Himself contains relationships. In this way God is complete though He is relational. You are right to say he does not *need* his people to return to him, on the contrary the Bible presents it the other way; we *need* him. That is why it is selfless for him to pursue us.
From there, I'd say that God has made us *for* something. We are wired a certain way, and God having made us does actually know what fulfills us, and he calls us towards that. This is the value in him pursuing us. It is important to note that Adam and Eve were *deceived* rather than making a rational choice to reject God. I think it is this deception that God seeks to rescue us from yet without overriding our freewill.
To talk about the toy analogy: I'd say there are right ways and wrong ways to play with a toy, and these are not arbitrary. Any good parent will step in and provide discipline to teach their children not to do things like eat their toys or being mean and greedy with them. This is how I see the directly moral and/or health-related laws.
On the other hand, in any relationship there are agreed upon things that seem arbitrary to outsiders. A married couple might agree to spend Thursday nights together exclusively, and someone might say "thursdays just like any other day" and they'd be half-right. The day would be made special by the relationship. This is how I see many of the laws like not wearing clothing made from two kinds of cloth or the Sabbath (although these things do *point* to moral principles).
As far as God and Pharaoh, I sort of see both as the same thing. The analogy I like is this: if you put a stick of butter in the sun, it melts, whereas if you put clay in the sun it hardens. The difference in effect has to do with the nature of the material. So the sun "hardens" the clay with the same action that melts butter. That's how I see the plagues: they very well could have humbled Pharaoh, had he chosen to respond that way. But he didn't, and therefore the same actions that might have humbled someone else hardened Pharaoh. Thus it is fair to say both that Pharaoh hardened his heart and that God hardened his heart, without placing the blame on God or doing injustice to Pharaoh's free will.
Thanks again for the conversation, I look forward to seeing what you think of my replies. Let me know if I missed anything.
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