Re: The False Promise of Vicarious RedemptionmagicalweasalApril 1 2009, 21:06:34 UTC
I've wanted to comment on this for the past two days, but haven't really had time.
Hitchen may talk about the lack of personal responsibility, but he also talks about the totalitarianism, as he sees it, of Christianity. He's upset that Christianity teaches that he was born with a sinful nature, and that he needs God to save him. He's upset at that Christianity, as he says, is the only religion that punishes in the afterlife.
The misconception he may have is that forgiveness is a release from responsibility, or that grace/forgiveness are a license to sin.
Let's consider speeding. I speed all the time. I've gotten tickets before, and I've gotten warnings before. Say for example I'm driving 80 in a 65. I get pulled over, and I get a ticket. I have the option or choice of going to a class and paying extra money. If I do this, then the ticket is wiped from my record. (I saw you're from Florida, in IL where I live, this is possible.)
The State doesn't then permit and encourage me to go speeding again. They don't want me to. But they have a system where I am given undeserved favor and a chance to turn from my speeding ways. If I speed again, I may or may not get caught again. But forgiveness is not a license to continue to do evil. But of course, many people do.
Whether or not that is true, Christianity is the only religion where a God lived in His creation and died to save it. It's also the only religion where works do not save you. Only grace through faith does that.
That part aside, back to what you were saying.
I don't mean that a perfect God has to demand perfection, but He does. Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly father is perfect. I can't make you believe the Bible is authoritive. My only response is that in His word God made himself known to the Israelites. He gave them his laws and said exactly what would please him and what wouldn't. That may sound odd, and maybe totalitarian to you, but in that day people didn't know what pleased their Gods. No other God was clear about his rules.
When I speak about justice, it goes back to what I said about everything good. Everything good comes from God. You agree that justice is good, yes? If you speed and get pulled over and pay a fine, that's justice. If I kill a man and get the needle, that's justice. Our justice system is an imperfect one that falls short of God's. If he is a creator, then he knows his creation, and can judge it impartially.
And to answer your other point, God defines himself in the scriptures. He reveals different names about himself that describe different parts of his character, makes different promises and covenants at different times.
I initially missed your comment where you say that bible verses are like speaking in code. That happens because of this:
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. Link.
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Hitchen may talk about the lack of personal responsibility, but he also talks about the totalitarianism, as he sees it, of Christianity. He's upset that Christianity teaches that he was born with a sinful nature, and that he needs God to save him. He's upset at that Christianity, as he says, is the only religion that punishes in the afterlife.
The misconception he may have is that forgiveness is a release from responsibility, or that grace/forgiveness are a license to sin.
Let's consider speeding. I speed all the time. I've gotten tickets before, and I've gotten warnings before. Say for example I'm driving 80 in a 65. I get pulled over, and I get a ticket. I have the option or choice of going to a class and paying extra money. If I do this, then the ticket is wiped from my record. (I saw you're from Florida, in IL where I live, this is possible.)
The State doesn't then permit and encourage me to go speeding again. They don't want me to. But they have a system where I am given undeserved favor and a chance to turn from my speeding ways. If I speed again, I may or may not get caught again. But forgiveness is not a license to continue to do evil. But of course, many people do.
Whether or not that is true, Christianity is the only religion where a God lived in His creation and died to save it. It's also the only religion where works do not save you. Only grace through faith does that.
That part aside, back to what you were saying.
I don't mean that a perfect God has to demand perfection, but He does. Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly father is perfect.
I can't make you believe the Bible is authoritive. My only response is that in His word God made himself known to the Israelites. He gave them his laws and said exactly what would please him and what wouldn't. That may sound odd, and maybe totalitarian to you, but in that day people didn't know what pleased their Gods. No other God was clear about his rules.
When I speak about justice, it goes back to what I said about everything good. Everything good comes from God. You agree that justice is good, yes? If you speed and get pulled over and pay a fine, that's justice. If I kill a man and get the needle, that's justice. Our justice system is an imperfect one that falls short of God's. If he is a creator, then he knows his creation, and can judge it impartially.
And to answer your other point, God defines himself in the scriptures. He reveals different names about himself that describe different parts of his character, makes different promises and covenants at different times.
I initially missed your comment where you say that bible verses are like speaking in code. That happens because of this:
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Link.
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