So Many Messages - So Much Good News
So Many Messages - So Much Good News
The book of Timothy like a lot of writings that are attributed to Paul has often left me wondering if Paul and his followers did not quite get everything that Jesus had to say in the way that they focused on the Risen Christ to the exclusion of his life on Earth.
Timothy II is a very short letter that is ( Read more... )
Where does Paul say this?
My 21st century Western female mind cannot wrap her head around the story of an omnipresent God who would make a part of itself in human form.
Why should orthodox Christian theology be determined by the limitations of some individual's cognitive faculties?
Basically, Jesus’ teaching was that religion is nothing if it does not come from the soul.
Where does Jesus say this?
He did not want to tell his disciples to remember to tell everyone that he was about to get sacrificed for our sins
Why did He say He was was going to "give His life as a ransom for many?" Why did He say "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins?" Why did He say "“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem?" These statements by Jesus seem to contradict your assertion.
“Love one another as much as we love ourselves "
Do you understand that here Jesus was summing up the Law -- not the Gospel?
we would be living in Heaven on Earth and would not have to worry about when the New Jerusalem was coming as Paul and his followers did as it would already be here.
Are you saying that John was a follower of Paul, not Jesus?
I hope you doin't find these questions offensive. It jsut seems to me that you are making many assertions that are not supported by the scriptural record or the witness of the early Church.
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What I thought I would do is to leave the part of my message in italics as you did and your question below it and my answer directly below it. Hope that works LOL.
if we believed in the Christ Jesus with all of our heart, and acted in the correct manner, the one that Paul was prescribing, then we would be absolved of our sins and could go to Heaven
Where does Paul say this?
I think that it is fair to say that Paul says this throughout his writing. Certainly in 2 Timothy 2: 9 he says
“But God’s Good News isn’t locked up in jail and so I am willing to put up with anything. Then God’s special people will be saved. The will be given eternal glory because they belong to Jesus Christ. Here is a true message:
If we died with Christ
We will live with him
If we don’t give up
We will rule with him
If we deny
That we know him
He will deny that he knows us
If we are not faithful
He will still be faithful
Christ cannot deny
who he is.
There are numerous other passages attributed to Paul where Paul is telling his people how to act, but just in this one alone we have Paul telling Timothy
1. that they are God’s SPECIAL PEOPLE
2. that because they are God’s SPECIAL PEOPLE as long as they follow Christ and do not GIVE UP and do not DENY HIM then they will RULE WITH HIM.
The absolution of sin is the grace of God that is a familiar theme of Paul. A direct quote is the familiar one from 1 Corinthians 15 1-4 and then 8 - 9 when he talks about being saved personally.
There are numerous references throughout the writings that are attributed to Paul which are just statements as to how he believes his followers should conduct themselves. For example Ephesians 4: 25 - 31 and Chapter 5 and Chapter 6
My 21st century Western female mind cannot wrap her head around the story of an omnipresent God who would make a part of itself in human form.
Why should orthodox Christian theology be determined by the limitations of some individual's cognitive faculties?
Well this may be true and I suppose I put this statement in my message in order to make it clear that the message was my own viewpoint and I certainly did not assume that others would believe what I believed. I would suggest though that instead of limitations you try to look outside of what you have been taught all of your life and review the scriptures in a different light and just assume for a minute that Jesus didn’t mean his life on earth to be here primarily to act as a sacrifice for your sin. What relevance could his life have for you? I think you would see that his teachings are powerfully important and in fact world changing if only people would really listen to them.
Basically, Jesus’ teaching was that religion is nothing if it does not come from the soul.
Where does Jesus say this?
Jesus says this in his stories over and over again. One of the best quotes that I found was at Matthew 15:3 when he is admonishing the Pharisees for questioning him about his disciples for not following the cleanliness restrictions around eating. He quotes Isaiah at 15: 8
All of you praise me
With your word
But you never really think about me.
It is useless for you to worship me
When you teach rules made up by humans.
I take that to mean that if you are only going to follow the human made rules, if you are going to be the “teacher of the Law of Moses” walking around in their long robes and be greeted in the market place” (Mark 12:38) making a great deal out of following the right liturgy and singing the write hymns, but not really feeling praise in one’s heart, then as Isaiah says “It is useless for you to worship me….”.
My post is too long so I am going to have to do a follow up. Sorry LOL.
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He did not want to tell his disciples to remember to tell everyone that he was about to get sacrificed for our sins
Why did He say He was going to "give His life as a ransom for many?" Why did He say "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins?" Why did He say "“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem?" These statements by Jesus seem to contradict your assertion.
Those are good questions: It’s interesting in Matthew during the Lord’s Supper there is a very short passage that says at Matthew 26:26-29 “It will be poured out, so that many people will have their sins forgiven”. “This is my blood and with it God makes his agreement with you.” Mark however, does not make mention of sins being forgiven but does talk about an agreement with God. (Mark 14: 23). Luke also tells the same story of breaking of the bread and pouring of the wine but also talks about how this is symbolizes the new agreement with God. (Luke 22: 14-20) and I don’t think that there is reference to this in John.
I see Jesus much like Marcus Borg sees him as a revolutionary figure of his time. I believe that he was executed by the political and religious authorities because he was attempting to bring reforms to a corrupt society. His blood was poured out for many so that their lives would be made better and he was very much sacrificed for the greater good for if his disciples were able to create a world movement of his teachings then many would be forgiven their sins (remember the adulteress woman) and many lives would be made better. The new agreement that God could have been demanding of us could have been that we follow the three commandments
1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind (Matthew 22: 37)
2. Love others as much as you love yourself (Matthew 22:39)
3. You must love each other just as I have loved you. If you love each other, everyone will know that you are my disciples. (John 13. 34)
“Repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem?" I am assuming that you are referring to Luke 24:46 when you make reference to Jesus’ statement. I note that this statement is attributed to Jesus after his death. The other statements that I have been making references to have all been attributed to him during his life. There may be other references during his life though and you being a pastor I am sure have more knowledge than I so I would really appreciate if you would direct me to them.
“Love one another as much as we love ourselves "
Do you understand that here Jesus was summing up the Law -- not the Gospel?
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was trying to say that we could have peace if we even followed the second commandment that being “Love others as much as you love yourself”.
we would be living in Heaven on Earth and would not have to worry about when the New Jerusalem was coming as Paul and his followers did as it would already be here.
Are you saying that John was a follower of Paul, not Jesus?
No John was clearly a follower of John. But by that time in my message I had left John and was speaking in my own voice. I was saying that if we could do as Jesus had asked us to do - that is love each other as he had loved his disciples. Then I went one step further based on the prayer that Jesus prayed to the Father at John 17 21:
I want all of them to be one with each other, just as I am one with you and you are one with me. I also want them to be one with us.”
So if we can be one with God, then each time one of us hurts another we would be hurting that little piece of God within etc.
Hope that answers some of the questions.
Elisabeth.
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