That would have been awesome to have Sam have to go through a twisted version of Bobby's house or Bobby's memories (some of which were awful) to find him. They made Heaven in Dark Side of the Moon scarier than this hell which looked like a fictional castle dungeon. They had to find the road in Heaven to get through it...here, Sam just had to walk down a hallway and dodge the occasional demon guard. Kind of like the Death Star without blasters and a garbage compactor. Bobby was pretty easy to convince that Sam was real. You'd think demons would have gotten access to all that stuff in his head by now and messed with it good. What worked with Dean proving his identity in The End was recycled here too. It's too bad it went this way because if it had been handled differently, there was the potential to make the episode hold up with the likes of Hello, Cruel World. As it was, I liked it as I watched it but was pretty disappointed in the aftermath. That being said, I think this could have gone worse so I ended up being relieved also
They made Heaven in Dark Side of the Moon scarier than this hell which looked like a fictional castle dungeon.
I think that's the trouble with all three 'Underworlds' this season. They all look a bit too much like ordinary places that just happen to have dead people in them. Take Naomi's office. It looks like it's actually her office, not just a place that she's using. Contrast that with Raphael borrowing a businessman's study to properly intimidate Castiel, or the particular horror of Castiel massacring his own people in a field that really belongs to a dead man who is just trying to enjoy flying his kite. I think making the afterlife this mishmash of human minds with the various gods, angels and demons living in them like parasites gives it a texture that is unique to Supernatural. I hope they bring that concept back. I'm a little bit in love with it.
Kind of like the Death Star without blasters and a garbage compactor.
It reminded me a lot of old-style Doctor Who sets. It doesn't matter whether the characters are visiting a
( ... )
Fantastic meta! I've kind of avoided thinking about SPN all weekend, because I am really tired of analysing all the ways current episodes fail to deliver on their premise, on continuity and characterisation.
By contrast, Taxi Driver wants to tell no less than five stories Yeah, you know, that aspect of the episode actually reminded me of Born-Again Identity, the very point in S7 where things suddenly took a turn to the worse in the narrative. They also tried to cram 4 storylines into an episode that really should have been devoted to only one - and the price they paid was emotional impact. It could have been a story about brotherly love, but instead it was reduced to a mediocre mish-mash of stories, none of which got the attention it deserved.
This version of hell is frightening because it is relentless. Lucifer is continuously present.Yep! And I love the way the cinematography supports that. The episode is filmed Fight Club style, i.e. for the audience, just like for Sam, Lucifer is just as real as Dean and Bobby. That scene where
( ... )
Thank you. :) I hope I'm not depressing you any more than the show already is, though.
Yeah, you know, that aspect of the episode actually reminded me of Born-Again Identity, the very point in S7 where things suddenly took a turn to the worse in the narrative. They also tried to cram 4 storylines into an episode that really should have been devoted to only one - and the price they paid was emotional impact. It could have been a story about brotherly love, but instead it was reduced to a mediocre mish-mash of stories, none of which got the attention it deserved.
Yes, it's much the same problem. The Born-Again Identity really puzzles me, though, because Sera Gamble is usually a superb writer and she really should have known better. And the fact that she chose to write it herself tells me that she got that this one was too important to delegate. It makes me wonder what went wrong that it ended up being written the way it was. I don't really expect better off Buckner and Ross-Lemming. I'm just baffled that anyone would give them an
( ... )
I hope I'm not depressing you any more than the show already is, though. Not at all. :) Taxi Driver didn't really depress me all that much. An episode usually depresses me when Sam and Dean are mean to each other for no comprehensible reason, because that's where my emotional investment is, but a continuity fail like Taxi Driver mostly makes me angry/frustrated at the writers sloppiness.
The Born-Again Identity really puzzles me, though, because Sera Gamble is usually a superb writer I have always assumed that The Born-Again Identity was Sera's attempt to wrap all her own storylines up in one fell swoop. The announcement of Sera's resignation as showrunner came in the week after the episode aired, and I think the timing is not a coincidence. And after the episode, S7 was basically in a stasis until they set up S8.
I can't do that, obviously, so I write meta instead. Which I am very, very grateful for! :)
I had such a hard time with this episode because it should have been epic...and it wasn't. I love how you methodically point out what failed, things which I couldn't articulate, I just knew hell wasn't scary enough and getting Bobby was way too easy.
It is terribly disappointing that no one stopped this script and fixed it, especially when some of the corrections could have been done with a better line or two of dialog...It makes me think that there must be a disconnect between how TPTB see things and how the fans see things. Which, actually, goes back to the start of the season and how Sam never looked for Dean. And all that was needed was for Sam to say, "I thought you might be in heaven." The fans would have forgiven him, even if Dean would have still been pissed.
Sigh. Because this show is capable of being brilliant, when it lets us down it really hurts twice as much.
I just knew hell wasn't scary enough and getting Bobby was way too easy.
That just makes you far more succinct than I am. :)
It is terribly disappointing that no one stopped this script and fixed it, especially when some of the corrections could have been done with a better line or two of dialog...It makes me think that there must be a disconnect between how TPTB see things and how the fans see things. Which, actually, goes back to the start of the season and how Sam never looked for Dean. And all that was needed was for Sam to say, "I thought you might be in heaven." The fans would have forgiven him, even if Dean would have still been pissed.
I swing back and forth between thinking there must be a reason for some of these bizarre plot choices, and thinking that they really do just have an entirely different perspective on them that I'm not seeing. If you're going to have Sam not search for Dean, I would think there would be an epic and well-explored reason for that. Then again, I'd think that if you were going to have Sam walk
( ... )
This episode was extremely disappointing. Your contrasting it to Hello, Cruel World really worked to point out the weaknesses. It was all over the place and the destruction of so many points of canon was just infuriating. Sam should have been traumatized by going to Hell. Dean should have been more concerned about Sam at the beginning. Heck, it would have been more compelling for me if the person they thought was Bobby wasn't Bobby, but a demon in disguise and Sam had to work to figure it out. I don't know what has happened to Crowley. He went from a guy who made Hell an endless queue and sort of eliminate torture has suddenly become torture happy and (if he wasn't a hallucination) able to overcome demon sigils.
The trouble is that Taxi Driver is completely unconcerned about how Sam feels about going to hell.Can I say that since Gabriel, as the Trickster, told Sam that Sam was basically Travis Bickel in a dress, that any episode called Taxi Driver should have been a real look at Sam's psyche. Just such a let down. A better
( ... )
It was all over the place and the destruction of so many points of canon was just infuriating.
Yeah, I didn't get into all the canon that they got wrong because I wanted to focus on the structure instead of putting together a list of nitpicks. But those are problematic too. Any one on its own could be forgivable as a minor error, but when you put them all together it suggests that the writers didn't care about the history. And that means that they don't care about what kind of hell they're writing. It's not just a generic hell, it's the one specific to Supernatural.
Heck, it would have been more compelling for me if the person they thought was Bobby wasn't Bobby, but a demon in disguise and Sam had to work to figure it out.
I'm sure there are any number of things they could have done with it. We could sit around and brainstorm better hells. But I think the key element here is that it has to be psychological. No amount of fire and brimstone is going to work. They have to take something important and twist it. That is the scariest
( ... )
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I think that's the trouble with all three 'Underworlds' this season. They all look a bit too much like ordinary places that just happen to have dead people in them. Take Naomi's office. It looks like it's actually her office, not just a place that she's using. Contrast that with Raphael borrowing a businessman's study to properly intimidate Castiel, or the particular horror of Castiel massacring his own people in a field that really belongs to a dead man who is just trying to enjoy flying his kite. I think making the afterlife this mishmash of human minds with the various gods, angels and demons living in them like parasites gives it a texture that is unique to Supernatural. I hope they bring that concept back. I'm a little bit in love with it.
Kind of like the Death Star without blasters and a garbage compactor.
It reminded me a lot of old-style Doctor Who sets. It doesn't matter whether the characters are visiting a ( ... )
Reply
By contrast, Taxi Driver wants to tell no less than five stories
Yeah, you know, that aspect of the episode actually reminded me of Born-Again Identity, the very point in S7 where things suddenly took a turn to the worse in the narrative. They also tried to cram 4 storylines into an episode that really should have been devoted to only one - and the price they paid was emotional impact. It could have been a story about brotherly love, but instead it was reduced to a mediocre mish-mash of stories, none of which got the attention it deserved.
This version of hell is frightening because it is relentless. Lucifer is continuously present.Yep! And I love the way the cinematography supports that. The episode is filmed Fight Club style, i.e. for the audience, just like for Sam, Lucifer is just as real as Dean and Bobby. That scene where ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, you know, that aspect of the episode actually reminded me of Born-Again Identity, the very point in S7 where things suddenly took a turn to the worse in the narrative. They also tried to cram 4 storylines into an episode that really should have been devoted to only one - and the price they paid was emotional impact. It could have been a story about brotherly love, but instead it was reduced to a mediocre mish-mash of stories, none of which got the attention it deserved.
Yes, it's much the same problem. The Born-Again Identity really puzzles me, though, because Sera Gamble is usually a superb writer and she really should have known better. And the fact that she chose to write it herself tells me that she got that this one was too important to delegate. It makes me wonder what went wrong that it ended up being written the way it was. I don't really expect better off Buckner and Ross-Lemming. I'm just baffled that anyone would give them an ( ... )
Reply
Not at all. :) Taxi Driver didn't really depress me all that much. An episode usually depresses me when Sam and Dean are mean to each other for no comprehensible reason, because that's where my emotional investment is, but a continuity fail like Taxi Driver mostly makes me angry/frustrated at the writers sloppiness.
The Born-Again Identity really puzzles me, though, because Sera Gamble is usually a superb writer
I have always assumed that The Born-Again Identity was Sera's attempt to wrap all her own storylines up in one fell swoop. The announcement of Sera's resignation as showrunner came in the week after the episode aired, and I think the timing is not a coincidence. And after the episode, S7 was basically in a stasis until they set up S8.
I can't do that, obviously, so I write meta instead.
Which I am very, very grateful for! :)
Reply
It is terribly disappointing that no one stopped this script and fixed it, especially when some of the corrections could have been done with a better line or two of dialog...It makes me think that there must be a disconnect between how TPTB see things and how the fans see things. Which, actually, goes back to the start of the season and how Sam never looked for Dean. And all that was needed was for Sam to say, "I thought you might be in heaven." The fans would have forgiven him, even if Dean would have still been pissed.
Sigh. Because this show is capable of being brilliant, when it lets us down it really hurts twice as much.
Reply
That just makes you far more succinct than I am. :)
It is terribly disappointing that no one stopped this script and fixed it, especially when some of the corrections could have been done with a better line or two of dialog...It makes me think that there must be a disconnect between how TPTB see things and how the fans see things. Which, actually, goes back to the start of the season and how Sam never looked for Dean. And all that was needed was for Sam to say, "I thought you might be in heaven." The fans would have forgiven him, even if Dean would have still been pissed.
I swing back and forth between thinking there must be a reason for some of these bizarre plot choices, and thinking that they really do just have an entirely different perspective on them that I'm not seeing. If you're going to have Sam not search for Dean, I would think there would be an epic and well-explored reason for that. Then again, I'd think that if you were going to have Sam walk ( ... )
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The trouble is that Taxi Driver is completely unconcerned about how Sam feels about going to hell.Can I say that since Gabriel, as the Trickster, told Sam that Sam was basically Travis Bickel in a dress, that any episode called Taxi Driver should have been a real look at Sam's psyche. Just such a let down. A better ( ... )
Reply
Yeah, I didn't get into all the canon that they got wrong because I wanted to focus on the structure instead of putting together a list of nitpicks. But those are problematic too. Any one on its own could be forgivable as a minor error, but when you put them all together it suggests that the writers didn't care about the history. And that means that they don't care about what kind of hell they're writing. It's not just a generic hell, it's the one specific to Supernatural.
Heck, it would have been more compelling for me if the person they thought was Bobby wasn't Bobby, but a demon in disguise and Sam had to work to figure it out.
I'm sure there are any number of things they could have done with it. We could sit around and brainstorm better hells. But I think the key element here is that it has to be psychological. No amount of fire and brimstone is going to work. They have to take something important and twist it. That is the scariest ( ... )
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