You haven't provided any reason to think that God cannot ordain coincidences to occur.
because biblically His hand is in all things.
look at the job passage. Gods breath creates ice, He loads the clouds with moisture, He guides the storm and gives it direction and it says why He does this. so that it might do whatever He commands it to do.
do you realize that creation doing whatever He commands is glorious? our submission to God magnifies Him. this storm has purpose because God caused it and He is magnified in it. His hand is seen in it, He does it for tons of reasons that He could be magnified in, whether for correction, or His world, or lovingkindness. He has caused it down to the details.
this analogy wont work because God foreknows T&G so much that they are inseperable if He has willed the two to combine. they are destined to be T&G because God has willed it, so until they are T&G they are just T-G and G-T. and the reason i can say this is because God knows the end result of all things, and the end result can not be left to coincidence if God has willed it.
God's hand being in all things doesn't have anything to do with my point about the possibility that God's hand is even in coincidences.
In the Job passage, God breath creates ice. Since God is not a body, this must be taken metaphorically. We interpret the unclear passages of Scripture inlight of the clear, and the Bible clearly shows that God is the sustainer of all existent things (Acts 17:28, Rom 11:36, Col 1:16-7, Heb 1:3, 2:10, Rev 4:11). So God creates ice, clouds, etc. in his single, eternal act of bringing the entirety of the world into existence (including all points of time, not a progression of points). Since I don't seem to be getting across my point, let me return to the example of Tom and the pot of gold.
God wills Tom's being in the field. God wills the pot of gold's being in the field. God wills that these states of affairs occur simultaneously. But we just don't know if God wills that Tom be in the field in order to find the pot of gold. It could be a coincidence that he finds the pot of God, because God's true purpose for Tom could be that he meet the woman of his dreams in that field (because that woman just so happens to be there at the same time as well). Perhaps whether Tom found the pot of gold was a nonissue for God. God doesn't care whether he finds the pot of gold or not. God specifically puts Tom there in order to meet this woman, call her Darla.
The analogy does work because even if God foreknows T&G, he doesn't have to also will T and G separately. Either he wills T and G separately, or together as T&G. Now, whichever way he wills them, they still seem to us to be willed as a conjunction. But we don't know if it was God's purpose that T&G occurred, because possibly he had a reason R for T and a reason R* for G. We don't need a reason R** for T&G. God could be operating on two reasons, rather than three.
Another point. Perhaps the Bible tells you reasons God causes the storm in the Bible, but does it tell you generally why he causes storms? Or does it tell you what purpose Hurricane Katrina had? Can you do more than speculate?
heh. you said pot of God. anyway, i do see your reasoning, i really just dont think that way, i believe Gods sovereignty chokes the life out of coincidence but i know that i rarely agree with anyone concerning His sovereign control so ill stop with the tom and gold analogy.
does it tell you what purpose Hurricane Katrina had?
all things have been created through Him and for Him. that is its purpose for Him, it may serve other causes that God glorify God, but this is its core purpose. this isnt speculation, its taken from scripture.
Does sin glorify God?
thats a trick question. because the end result of sin will always be repentance and that glorifies God. and i know i keep saying this but we along with the rest of creation were subjected to futility in hope. so while our falleness causes us to fall short of His glory, He was glorified in subjecting us in hope of freeing us.
i like that you make me think and get in the word to more fully understand what i believe. it feels like good excersize.
heh. you said pot of God. anyway, i do see your reasoning, i really just dont think that way, i believe Gods sovereignty chokes the life out of coincidence but i know that i rarely agree with anyone concerning His sovereign control so ill stop with the tom and gold analogy.
I don't see any good reason to think that. At least, you haven't presented any good reason to think that God's sovereignty is violent with coincidence. I've presented compelling reasons to think the contrary is the case; but if you wish to ignore the facts, by all means, do as you please.
all things have been created through Him and for Him. that is its purpose for Him, it may serve other causes that God glorify God, but this is its core purpose. this isnt speculation, its taken from scripture.
Is a hurricane a "thing"? After all, the reason sin does not bring glory to God (though it serves an instrumental purpose, as you pointed out) is because sin is a privation or lack of an individual's proper functioning. Sin is not a substance or a "thing." The same may be true of a hurricane. Perhaps it is not properly speaking a "thing," and so does not properly speaking give glory to God. Furthermore, and more importantly (and less metaphysically), when I ask for a thing's purpose, I also want to know about its means to achieving that purpose. My earlier point is that you can only speculate about how this hurricane gives glory to God. You can give its ultimate purpose, but not its immediate purpose. If I ask you what the purpose of a car is, are you going to tell me that its purpose is to give glory to God? No, and if you do I'll think you on crack. I want the immediate purpose-which is to get a person where s/he needs to go.
"Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy."-1 timothy 6:17
God richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. why would you have a car unless its purpose is to give glory to God? i guess now your gonna think im on crack.
you haven't presented any good reason to think that God's sovereignty is violent with coincidence.
actually i did "the reason i can say this is because God knows the end result of all things, and the end result can not be left to coincidence if God has willed it."
there is no greater One responsible for the creation of sin, is there? you arent going to tell me sin was coincidence now are you? of course it includes sin and hurricanes. God created the hurricane and its end will be His glory, because the Lord has done it. or is there some other god i dont know of that creates storms and all kind of calamity? its ok by me to say the Lord has done it because i believe His sovereign control is a good thing because its end is His glory.
God richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. why would you have a car unless its purpose is to give glory to God? i guess now your gonna think im on crack.
The immediate purpose of a car is not to give glory to God. Most Christians do not think they are giving glory to God by filling up their car. They are using it for its immediate purpose-which is transportation. This is not in contradiction with the ultimate purpose of giving glory to God, but it is not immediately apparent that it is glory-giving, and even when it is, it is not something of which we are naturally conscious. So again, I submit that you are confusing the ultimate purpose of a thing with its immediate purpose (and you still have not appreciated the distinction between instrinsic and instrumental goods).
actually i did "the reason i can say this is because God knows the end result of all things, and the end result can not be left to coincidence if God has willed it."
Not only is this not good reason to think that God's sovereignty is violent with coincidence, it isn't any reason at all. God's knowing the end result, and even determining the end result, does not mean that there is no chance or coincidence. For as I said before, even if God foreknows two concurrent events in their entirety, and wills both events, we don't know that there is a reason for the events occuring concurrently, or just a separate reason for each which is sufficient for God's willing it. You have not addressed this, and so you have not responded to my argument for chance, nor defended your position in any compelling manner. Again, if God wills T&G, he doesn't have to also will T and G separately. Either he wills T and G separately, or together as T&G. Now, whichever way he wills them, they still seem to us to be willed as a conjunction. But we don't know if it was God's purpose that T&G occurred, because possibly he had a reason R for T and a reason R* for G. We don't need a reason R** for T&G. God could be operating on two reasons, rather than three.there is no greater One responsible for the creation of sin, is there? you arent going to tell me sin was coincidence now are you? of course it includes sin and hurricanes.
How can God be responsible for sin if he is perfectly good? Nothing evil can come from perfect and complete goodness. Evil is a privation of good, and not a substance or "thing." In the same way, it isn't immediately obvious to me that a hurricane is a "thing"-thus there is no reason to think a hurricane has a purpose. Only things have purposes. If a hurricane is nothing more than a mental construction out of smaller constituents (which themselves might be things, even if what they compose is not a "thing"), then why assume that "it" has purpose?
sorry once again that i took so longmade_aliveSeptember 21 2005, 19:02:21 UTC
How can God be responsible for sin if he is perfectly good? Evil is a privation of good, and not a substance or "thing." In the same way, it isn't immediately obvious to me that a hurricane is a "thing"-thus there is no reason to think a hurricane has a purpose.
Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? -lamentations 3:37
i dont know Gods purposes, but i know He has them and they bring Him glory. and i know that when destruction happens there is no One greater than the God of the universe that could cause it to happen. and i know that His wrath does serve an immediate purpose, it draws attention to His ultimate purpose.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." -romans 1:18-20
because biblically His hand is in all things.
look at the job passage. Gods breath creates ice, He loads the clouds with moisture, He guides the storm and gives it direction and it says why He does this. so that it might do whatever He commands it to do.
do you realize that creation doing whatever He commands is glorious? our submission to God magnifies Him. this storm has purpose because God caused it and He is magnified in it. His hand is seen in it, He does it for tons of reasons that He could be magnified in, whether for correction, or His world, or lovingkindness. He has caused it down to the details.
this analogy wont work because God foreknows T&G so much that they are inseperable if He has willed the two to combine. they are destined to be T&G because God has willed it, so until they are T&G they are just T-G and G-T. and the reason i can say this is because God knows the end result of all things, and the end result can not be left to coincidence if God has willed it.
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In the Job passage, God breath creates ice. Since God is not a body, this must be taken metaphorically. We interpret the unclear passages of Scripture inlight of the clear, and the Bible clearly shows that God is the sustainer of all existent things (Acts 17:28, Rom 11:36, Col 1:16-7, Heb 1:3, 2:10, Rev 4:11). So God creates ice, clouds, etc. in his single, eternal act of bringing the entirety of the world into existence (including all points of time, not a progression of points). Since I don't seem to be getting across my point, let me return to the example of Tom and the pot of gold.
God wills Tom's being in the field. God wills the pot of gold's being in the field. God wills that these states of affairs occur simultaneously. But we just don't know if God wills that Tom be in the field in order to find the pot of gold. It could be a coincidence that he finds the pot of God, because God's true purpose for Tom could be that he meet the woman of his dreams in that field (because that woman just so happens to be there at the same time as well). Perhaps whether Tom found the pot of gold was a nonissue for God. God doesn't care whether he finds the pot of gold or not. God specifically puts Tom there in order to meet this woman, call her Darla.
The analogy does work because even if God foreknows T&G, he doesn't have to also will T and G separately. Either he wills T and G separately, or together as T&G. Now, whichever way he wills them, they still seem to us to be willed as a conjunction. But we don't know if it was God's purpose that T&G occurred, because possibly he had a reason R for T and a reason R* for G. We don't need a reason R** for T&G. God could be operating on two reasons, rather than three.
Another point. Perhaps the Bible tells you reasons God causes the storm in the Bible, but does it tell you generally why he causes storms? Or does it tell you what purpose Hurricane Katrina had? Can you do more than speculate?
One further question: Does sin glorify God?
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does it tell you what purpose Hurricane Katrina had?
all things have been created through Him and for Him. that is its purpose for Him, it may serve other causes that God glorify God, but this is its core purpose. this isnt speculation, its taken from scripture.
Does sin glorify God?
thats a trick question. because the end result of sin will always be repentance and that glorifies God. and i know i keep saying this but we along with the rest of creation were subjected to futility in hope. so while our falleness causes us to fall short of His glory, He was glorified in subjecting us in hope of freeing us.
i like that you make me think and get in the word to more fully understand what i believe. it feels like good excersize.
Reply
I don't see any good reason to think that. At least, you haven't presented any good reason to think that God's sovereignty is violent with coincidence. I've presented compelling reasons to think the contrary is the case; but if you wish to ignore the facts, by all means, do as you please.
all things have been created through Him and for Him. that is its purpose for Him, it may serve other causes that God glorify God, but this is its core purpose. this isnt speculation, its taken from scripture.
Is a hurricane a "thing"? After all, the reason sin does not bring glory to God (though it serves an instrumental purpose, as you pointed out) is because sin is a privation or lack of an individual's proper functioning. Sin is not a substance or a "thing." The same may be true of a hurricane. Perhaps it is not properly speaking a "thing," and so does not properly speaking give glory to God. Furthermore, and more importantly (and less metaphysically), when I ask for a thing's purpose, I also want to know about its means to achieving that purpose. My earlier point is that you can only speculate about how this hurricane gives glory to God. You can give its ultimate purpose, but not its immediate purpose. If I ask you what the purpose of a car is, are you going to tell me that its purpose is to give glory to God? No, and if you do I'll think you on crack. I want the immediate purpose-which is to get a person where s/he needs to go.
Reply
God richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. why would you have a car unless its purpose is to give glory to God? i guess now your gonna think im on crack.
you haven't presented any good reason to think that God's sovereignty is violent with coincidence.
actually i did "the reason i can say this is because God knows the end result of all things, and the end result can not be left to coincidence if God has willed it."
there is no greater One responsible for the creation of sin, is there? you arent going to tell me sin was coincidence now are you? of course it includes sin and hurricanes. God created the hurricane and its end will be His glory, because the Lord has done it. or is there some other god i dont know of that creates storms and all kind of calamity? its ok by me to say the Lord has done it because i believe His sovereign control is a good thing because its end is His glory.
Reply
The immediate purpose of a car is not to give glory to God. Most Christians do not think they are giving glory to God by filling up their car. They are using it for its immediate purpose-which is transportation. This is not in contradiction with the ultimate purpose of giving glory to God, but it is not immediately apparent that it is glory-giving, and even when it is, it is not something of which we are naturally conscious. So again, I submit that you are confusing the ultimate purpose of a thing with its immediate purpose (and you still have not appreciated the distinction between instrinsic and instrumental goods).
actually i did "the reason i can say this is because God knows the end result of all things, and the end result can not be left to coincidence if God has willed it."
Not only is this not good reason to think that God's sovereignty is violent with coincidence, it isn't any reason at all. God's knowing the end result, and even determining the end result, does not mean that there is no chance or coincidence. For as I said before, even if God foreknows two concurrent events in their entirety, and wills both events, we don't know that there is a reason for the events occuring concurrently, or just a separate reason for each which is sufficient for God's willing it. You have not addressed this, and so you have not responded to my argument for chance, nor defended your position in any compelling manner. Again, if God wills T&G,
he doesn't have to also will T and G separately. Either he wills T and G separately, or together as T&G. Now, whichever way he wills them, they still seem to us to be willed as a conjunction. But we don't know if it was God's purpose that T&G occurred, because possibly he had a reason R for T and a reason R* for G. We don't need a reason R** for T&G. God could be operating on two reasons, rather than three.
there is no greater One responsible for the creation of sin, is there? you arent going to tell me sin was coincidence now are you? of course it includes sin and hurricanes.How can God be responsible for sin if he is perfectly good? Nothing evil can come from perfect and complete goodness. Evil is a privation of good, and not a substance or "thing." In the same way, it isn't immediately obvious to me that a hurricane is a "thing"-thus there is no reason to think a hurricane has a purpose. Only things have purposes. If a hurricane is nothing more than a mental construction out of smaller constituents (which themselves might be things, even if what they compose is not a "thing"), then why assume that "it" has purpose?
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Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? -lamentations 3:37
i dont know Gods purposes, but i know He has them and they bring Him glory. and i know that when destruction happens there is no One greater than the God of the universe that could cause it to happen. and i know that His wrath does serve an immediate purpose, it draws attention to His ultimate purpose.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." -romans 1:18-20
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