also what does "sell your possessions and give to charity" mean to you guys?
This is a tough one. I think many a Christian has struggled with this and exactly what it means. I think (and I'm sure I don't have to tell you this) that we first need to look at verses in their context and in light of the ENTIRE Bible before coming to conclusions on what we think they mean.
There are way more instances of God rewarding or blessing people with possessions and the like (think Job, Solomon), than there is of Him telling us to just get rid of everything. BUT, and this is pure guess work at this point, the Job story does tend to show that while Job had all these possessions and was a righteous man, he had to have it all taken away from him before anything was added back to him. I can't help but wonder what the significance of that is. Something to ponder perhaps.
But we need to think through this logically a little bit. If we are truly supposed to sell all our possessions, then this must apply to us AND the church, right? If so, then the Church needs to sell its chairs, pews, altars, instruments, COMPUTERS (yes, you'd have to get rid of your computer), cars (how would we get to church?), houses (I guess we should walk around and ask people if we can stay with them. Let's see how THAT turns out!), etc... If God tells us to make a joyful noise unto him and to praise him with all these different instruments, does this mean we can't actually own them but should rent them to praise Him? Do you see where I'm going with this? I think there has to be a deeper meaning to Christ's words here than to just 'sell everything' and follow Him. But I can't tell you what that is. I can only help you to possibly see the whole picture.
Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Do you hate your mother, father, brothers, sisters?
It just seems like there is an overall message here where Jesus is saying NOTHING can come before loyalty to Him (something I myself am struggling with as you know with my own family). But do we truly believe that Jesus is telling us to hate our families? It simply doesn't make sense. Jesus always seems to make very blunt statements in order to drive a point home. And His point is that nothing can come before Him.
It's called hebraic hyperbole, and Christ used it often because it was something that the Jews would identify with. Although we must be always careful not to excuse away the commands of Christ because of it's use, we still must be diligent to look at the surrounding text to fully understand His meaning. It is also important to remember that Christ was vehemently against the unnecessary yoke of legalism that the pharisees placed upon the people. In contrast, the yoke Christ places upon us is easy; His burden is light. That's not to say the Christian life is a cake-walk. We all have our own stories of suffering for our Lord.
this one is definately one i should consider. although i think it does make sense, i dont think Christ just asks us to do things with an expectation that we will obey while withholding for ourselves portions according to our logic.
if you think about what it takes to really follow Christ as He says to it seems that we really do have to hate our own lives and the lives of loved ones so that He is our most sought after object of our affection.
There is nothing wrong with your assessment here, per se. I think the issue is that you are weighing SO much on the New Testament without taking the Old Testament into consideration. The entire Bible is the Word of God. Nothing is irrelevant and one part is not more important than other parts. You are obviously aware of this as the NT writers and Christ quote the OT hundreds of times. So any time we look at Scripture, we need to see what the entire Bible says about a topic before making up our minds. So while it seems to make sense to take the approach you mention here...
if you think about what it takes to really follow Christ as He says to it seems that we really do have to hate our own lives and the lives of loved ones so that He is our most sought after object of our affection.
...you may be missing the point when you also take into consideration "honor your mother and father." God in no way, shape, or form intends for us to hate everything and everyone and just focus on Him. Otherwise He wouldn't have given us our families, He wouldn't have continued His covenant with us, and so on. We can't just take the words of Christ and discard the rest of the Bible as less important (I'm not saying you're doing that, but it does appear that you may be very reliant on the NT).
I know you are just beginning this particular study so I am sure you will seek the entire counsel of Scripture. Let me know what you turn up as you've rasied a really good topic!!!!
i dont mean hate as in there is no faith working itself out in love, and i dont think scripture does either. but where there is faith and reliance on God and God alone for affection, protection, fulfillment, joy, and all these things love will be a fruit of this faith, evidence even that the faith is genuine.
these do seem to be a paradox but they coinside.
but it does appear that you may be very reliant on the NT
i am aware that scripture is the full counsel of God and i wouldnt hold any scripture above the other, and if i did i would be wrong. i know the new testament better than i do the old but i am not quoting a scripture in the new testament to oppose one in the old. and if it seemed to you that i was, i apologize, that is not my intention.
but where there is faith and reliance on God and God alone for affection, protection, fulfillment, joy, and all these things love will be a fruit of this faith, evidence even that the faith is genuine.
I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, God is to be our primary source of all these things but He did give our families to us for these reasons as well. Remember that we are to love God with all we are but the second is like it, meaning of like importance, to love our neighbor as ourself. So if Christ said both to hate them and to love them what do you think was going on? Could He have been using hyperbole to drive a point home without literally meaning to hate? It is worth exploring, is it not?
im sure its a hyperbole, my point is not that Christ is being literal here. i know im being extreme too but it does seem that in order to be His disciple you truly have to be devoted to God to such extremes. im just saying i understand why Christ would say such crazy things, because being a disciple is pretty much being stripped of all worldy pleasures so that our affections will be entirely fixed on Christ.
this does not mean to me that i should not enjoy the blessings of God but i must almost hate them compared to the degree that i love God.
i have been considering that God does bless with material possessions, but in the rich young rulers case the possessions that were given to him from God were used against like a curse.
But we need to think through this logically a little bit.
sorry im gonna have to stop right there, not going to hold my logic above the logic of scripture. i do believe that God knows my needs and any suffering that comes with selling my possessions will not be done in vain. i really should study it in context tho. thanks for your imput.
He gave you a mind Ciara, it's ok to use it. No one is saying to hold our logic ABOVE the logic of Scripture. But we can certainly use our minds WITH Scripture.
its ok to use it in the confinds of scripture, if we will think with God centered motives. is it using our minds with scripture to say i will not sell my things because i dont think He meant it? the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. what if He actually did mean what He said. what if it is ludicrus but He meant it?
is God asking to much of us that we would give what is not ours?
If God really meant to sell everything and go through life with nothing but a tunic and sandals, he wouldn't have also given us multiple examples in Scripture of how He blessed people with wealth.
I don't think God is asking too much of us that we would give what is not ours. Not at all. Nor do I think God wants you to sell your apartment, car, fridge, computer, BIBLE, and any other matieral thing you may own and just wander the streets 'following Him' and begging for food and shelter. That's really all I am saying.
and i thank you for your concern. but what if God did want me to live on the street, He still knows my needs! i can not rely on my own logic, i do not know my needs better than God. my thinking is futile and His ways are higher than mine. i can not choose to disobey so that my physical needs will be met.
i do believe God blesses with wealth, it is biblical. which seems to me that i have no reason to fear because the same God who is able to bless beyond our need is calling me to obey while knowing what He is asking of me.
i know im being stubborn but i want to be given good reasoning scripturally that says i am not on the right track.
It's not stubborn. You're sticking to convictions. That's cool. I will work through Scriptures a little bit and see if we can't find what you're looking for :)
This is a tough one. I think many a Christian has struggled with this and exactly what it means. I think (and I'm sure I don't have to tell you this) that we first need to look at verses in their context and in light of the ENTIRE Bible before coming to conclusions on what we think they mean.
There are way more instances of God rewarding or blessing people with possessions and the like (think Job, Solomon), than there is of Him telling us to just get rid of everything. BUT, and this is pure guess work at this point, the Job story does tend to show that while Job had all these possessions and was a righteous man, he had to have it all taken away from him before anything was added back to him. I can't help but wonder what the significance of that is. Something to ponder perhaps.
But we need to think through this logically a little bit. If we are truly supposed to sell all our possessions, then this must apply to us AND the church, right? If so, then the Church needs to sell its chairs, pews, altars, instruments, COMPUTERS (yes, you'd have to get rid of your computer), cars (how would we get to church?), houses (I guess we should walk around and ask people if we can stay with them. Let's see how THAT turns out!), etc... If God tells us to make a joyful noise unto him and to praise him with all these different instruments, does this mean we can't actually own them but should rent them to praise Him? Do you see where I'm going with this? I think there has to be a deeper meaning to Christ's words here than to just 'sell everything' and follow Him. But I can't tell you what that is. I can only help you to possibly see the whole picture.
~D
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Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Do you hate your mother, father, brothers, sisters?
It just seems like there is an overall message here where Jesus is saying NOTHING can come before loyalty to Him (something I myself am struggling with as you know with my own family). But do we truly believe that Jesus is telling us to hate our families? It simply doesn't make sense. Jesus always seems to make very blunt statements in order to drive a point home. And His point is that nothing can come before Him.
Anyway, that is how I see it.
~D
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if you think about what it takes to really follow Christ as He says to it seems that we really do have to hate our own lives and the lives of loved ones so that He is our most sought after object of our affection.
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if you think about what it takes to really follow Christ as He says to it seems that we really do have to hate our own lives and the lives of loved ones so that He is our most sought after object of our affection.
...you may be missing the point when you also take into consideration "honor your mother and father." God in no way, shape, or form intends for us to hate everything and everyone and just focus on Him. Otherwise He wouldn't have given us our families, He wouldn't have continued His covenant with us, and so on. We can't just take the words of Christ and discard the rest of the Bible as less important (I'm not saying you're doing that, but it does appear that you may be very reliant on the NT).
I know you are just beginning this particular study so I am sure you will seek the entire counsel of Scripture. Let me know what you turn up as you've rasied a really good topic!!!!
~D
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these do seem to be a paradox but they coinside.
but it does appear that you may be very reliant on the NT
i am aware that scripture is the full counsel of God and i wouldnt hold any scripture above the other, and if i did i would be wrong. i know the new testament better than i do the old but i am not quoting a scripture in the new testament to oppose one in the old. and if it seemed to you that i was, i apologize, that is not my intention.
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I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, God is to be our primary source of all these things but He did give our families to us for these reasons as well. Remember that we are to love God with all we are but the second is like it, meaning of like importance, to love our neighbor as ourself. So if Christ said both to hate them and to love them what do you think was going on? Could He have been using hyperbole to drive a point home without literally meaning to hate? It is worth exploring, is it not?
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this does not mean to me that i should not enjoy the blessings of God but i must almost hate them compared to the degree that i love God.
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But we need to think through this logically a little bit.
sorry im gonna have to stop right there, not going to hold my logic above the logic of scripture. i do believe that God knows my needs and any suffering that comes with selling my possessions will not be done in vain. i really should study it in context tho. thanks for your imput.
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He gave you a mind Ciara, it's ok to use it. No one is saying to hold our logic ABOVE the logic of Scripture. But we can certainly use our minds WITH Scripture.
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is God asking to much of us that we would give what is not ours?
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I don't think God is asking too much of us that we would give what is not ours. Not at all. Nor do I think God wants you to sell your apartment, car, fridge, computer, BIBLE, and any other matieral thing you may own and just wander the streets 'following Him' and begging for food and shelter. That's really all I am saying.
~D
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i do believe God blesses with wealth, it is biblical. which seems to me that i have no reason to fear because the same God who is able to bless beyond our need is calling me to obey while knowing what He is asking of me.
i know im being stubborn but i want to be given good reasoning scripturally that says i am not on the right track.
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~D
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you have no idea how much that means to me. :)
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