HA! I feel I have slightly influenced you in breaking your silence in re: talking about CI and CM! I do not feel guilty about this. The rest of my flist needs to know we are out there.
I have mentioned before about my head!thesis comparing Goren to Reid, but I've decided to let it go. Despite the arbitrary similarities (mother, father, magic [btw, MGG is a better magician than VDO, sorry to say]), they end there. Goren's character is based on forensic psychologist Park Dietz, who is the basis for Gideon's character. Personality-wise, Goren is more like Gideon than Reid. I love the fact that Reid is the anti-alpha, and also that the show has let his character grow and change, but not in an unhealthy way, as Goren's did. Actually, I see Reid as the Abby of the team, more than the Goren, which I will explain below.
While I do believe the CM creators had some lightbulb moment about inserting a quirky female character ala Abby into the show, that is exactly where their similarities end. Abby is a male embodiment of the idealized fantasy female: beautiful, brilliant, openly sexual, and constantly vulnerable. Several episodes a season are dedicated to Abby in danger! and the team running around trying to rescue her, or, Abby feels vulnerable about something completely out of character! and is therefore needing comfort and the paternalistic care of Gibbs. She is not just brilliant about forensics, but computers! and puppies! She is Goth, but happy! Beautiful, but single! Womanly, but childlike in her need for affection and protection!
Garcia, on the other hand, is the emotional caretaker of the team, though in a more subtle way. She is brilliant, but in one thing. Her vulnerabilities lie in her "Everywoman" status of the team (that character that reminds the other characters there is a human element to what they do, and therefore reminds them of their own humanity), but the show doesn't feel the need to exemplify this by putting her in danger every other episode. Also? Boyfriend! Which rocks.
So that, my friend, is my mini-thesis on Abby vs. Garcia (which I could have made much longer, but I decided to spare you), which I actually find much more interesting than Goren vs. Reid, mostly because women are more interesting to talk about.
The HotchStare, however, kills me! It. Kills. Me. I love him.
I never said I thought Goren and Reid were similar personality wise because I don't really...though it really does bother me how similar some of the basics are of their backstories. I think with early CI you could see some similarities just in the akwardness they both can have and how little jokes and things like that get by them because they're so wrapped up in all these little facts, except Reid is in an evironment where his professional peers get him and he's more awkward socially, where early Goren we see more the opposite at times because he's working in an environment that isn't as open to his methods (i.e. Poison CI s.1).
Though I don't really see Gideon as the Goren either...maybe who I invision in my CI head!cannon as who Goren would become at this point in his post CI life as it was previously left (of course now they're totally fucking that up with more actual cannon, but I digress). or maybe it's just because I never cared for the Gideon years, I think mostly because after Rube (dead like me), I don't really want to see Mandy Patinkin as anyone else...
I do see what you are saying about Abby / Garcia / Reid...of course I didn't really realize that they do that to Abby every season on NCIS, however at the same time NCIS doesn't really need that character that brings the humanity to the show, because NCIS is a much lighter/humerous show compared to CM. So, I'm not saying they serve the same purpose as far as the dynamic of their perpsective groups, but just that it seemed like a blantant attempt on the networks/PTB's part to recreate a formula that worked for one of their other successful shows to try to make it more appealing/relatable to a mass audience, but I find dark shows about serial killers usually don't last long when they are as direct and dark as CM can be because it's uncomfortable to wath at times (like Profiler - I loved Profiler until they tried to re-vamp it and make it lighter hearted because it totally messed up the chi of the show...and Ally Walker jumped ship).
And a part of me feels I should like Garcia more because she is the geeky tec girl who is fabulous and dates an adorably geeky Xander doppleganger, but I don't know. I feel like JJ could also be considered the one who brings, well brought, the humanity to the group despite being in the thick of it with them. she's not a profiler. She's the one who connects to the people who aren't psychopaths. I guess that's one reason they saw her as expendiable to the show since they don't really need two people serving that purose.
And you do have a point that they do like to torture Reid by putting him in danger.
HotchStare - Yes. For a character who can be rather bland or seen as bland -- he's oddly appealing. Though I thought it was rather gratuitous that they killed off his wife or ex-wife.
To me, Patinkin will always be Inigo MontoyagoddessdsterDecember 4 2010, 22:52:53 UTC
I just wrote an entire comment disagreeing with you, but then I thought, who the fuck cares? We bring our own perceptions, perspectives, wishes, and desires to the characters we like. So therefore when you and I watch any of these shows, we're each seeing something completely different. For example, you saw killing Haley as gratuitous, I saw it as a necessary plot point to move Hotch's character (much like Tara's death on Buffy - dead gay character aside) to a new level, or he was never going to change and grow.
And I don't care for S1 CM because I couldn't stand Elle.
Re: To me, Patinkin will always be Inigo Montoyalynnez59December 5 2010, 00:04:27 UTC
We bring our own perceptions, perspectives, wishes, and desires to the characters we like. So therefore when you and I watch any of these shows, we're each seeing something completely different.
Exactly -- that's what makes it fun to talk about. Who needs concrete truths like math and science.*Phf*
And I really didn't like Elle either. As far as Haley...I do appreciate the fact that they went for it because it was definitly a risk writing wise and I will say I was glued to the screen the whole episode...but I don't know. It was just so horrible...
And I haven't seen "Princess Bride" in forever. Though apparently ROUS are real! My mom was watching something and they had something on it about this jumbo rats the size of dogs.
Re: To me, Patinkin will always be Inigo MontoyagoddessdsterDecember 5 2010, 03:27:43 UTC
Oh, I could talk about it all until the end of time. But sometimes I get possessive about my Reid and my Goren, and it's not that I don't respect your perspective (because I do a whole bunch), but I get defensive, like I have to protect mine, or something. I'm as crazy as everyone else sometimes.
"100" as an episode was a work of brilliance. One of the tensest hours of television I've ever seen. That's another reason I love CM, the quality to it. The pacing, direction, lighting, music, all of it contributes in some qualitative way to the episode. They have one of the best music directors I've heard on a television show, I was reminded of that when rewatching "Revelations" (the Reid gets kidnapped episode from S2) and the opening sequence as the team shows up at Tobias Henkel's shack to the background music of the Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil," set a brilliant tense tone for the rest of the episode.
We have jumbo rats the size of cats, but they are actually nutria. Some people eat them. I do not.
Re: To me, Patinkin will always be Inigo Montoyalynnez59December 5 2010, 18:07:55 UTC
I get possessive about my Reid and my Goren,
I get that -- I mean you see how stumbly and "butbutbut" I get when defending myEames...so I get it. But I also like talking about this stuff and hearing how/why (there has to be why) other people see these same characters differently because we all place parts of ourselves in them when we write them and the fact that we want to write them at all I think would speak to the fact that we identify with these characters for reason or another, though what this is may be completely different.
For instance, I was thinking and I think why the Haley thing bothered me is because I come from a single mother home and Haley has essentialy been a single mom (Hotch even admits as much in that episode) and I just would have been so utterly lost without my mom growing up and I think I'm just imagining a little too much what Jack would be going through. Though Hotch has put more considerable effort than my dad would but that's a different conversation.
I do really like that episode "Revelations" -- who knew Dawson could actually act.
And I don't eat anything with 4 legs so, no jumbo rats for me, please.
4-legged animals are tastygoddessdsterDecember 5 2010, 20:24:31 UTC
Oh, I think it's an interesting discussion to have. I mean, squeeing is fun, but unproductive. Thing is, if identifying with a character is a prerequisite for writing them (and I agree with you there), then I don't know why I want to write Reid. As much as I love him, I don't see parts of myself in him. But I do think he's the most complex character on a show filled with complex characters. He's also the most emotionally cut-off, which may be something I DO actually identify with, so there is something.
But mostly, I was happy just loving CM the same way I love Bones and NCIS, no need to write more stories. I believe my desire to write in it is partly because the fandom is filled with crappy writers, and I want to write something I would want to read, and partly because Reid is a fascinating character to me, and I guess I want to get to know my Reid better. Through his hair.
Oh and I meant to say - you're welcome to steal my Hotch/puppet Angel comparison if you ever come across a place it would be useful fic. It's doubtful I'd ever write CM fic unless it was coupled with CI...
I have mentioned before about my head!thesis comparing Goren to Reid, but I've decided to let it go. Despite the arbitrary similarities (mother, father, magic [btw, MGG is a better magician than VDO, sorry to say]), they end there. Goren's character is based on forensic psychologist Park Dietz, who is the basis for Gideon's character. Personality-wise, Goren is more like Gideon than Reid. I love the fact that Reid is the anti-alpha, and also that the show has let his character grow and change, but not in an unhealthy way, as Goren's did. Actually, I see Reid as the Abby of the team, more than the Goren, which I will explain below.
While I do believe the CM creators had some lightbulb moment about inserting a quirky female character ala Abby into the show, that is exactly where their similarities end. Abby is a male embodiment of the idealized fantasy female: beautiful, brilliant, openly sexual, and constantly vulnerable. Several episodes a season are dedicated to Abby in danger! and the team running around trying to rescue her, or, Abby feels vulnerable about something completely out of character! and is therefore needing comfort and the paternalistic care of Gibbs. She is not just brilliant about forensics, but computers! and puppies! She is Goth, but happy! Beautiful, but single! Womanly, but childlike in her need for affection and protection!
Garcia, on the other hand, is the emotional caretaker of the team, though in a more subtle way. She is brilliant, but in one thing. Her vulnerabilities lie in her "Everywoman" status of the team (that character that reminds the other characters there is a human element to what they do, and therefore reminds them of their own humanity), but the show doesn't feel the need to exemplify this by putting her in danger every other episode. Also? Boyfriend! Which rocks.
So that, my friend, is my mini-thesis on Abby vs. Garcia (which I could have made much longer, but I decided to spare you), which I actually find much more interesting than Goren vs. Reid, mostly because women are more interesting to talk about.
The HotchStare, however, kills me! It. Kills. Me. I love him.
Reply
Though I don't really see Gideon as the Goren either...maybe who I invision in my CI head!cannon as who Goren would become at this point in his post CI life as it was previously left (of course now they're totally fucking that up with more actual cannon, but I digress). or maybe it's just because I never cared for the Gideon years, I think mostly because after Rube (dead like me), I don't really want to see Mandy Patinkin as anyone else...
I do see what you are saying about Abby / Garcia / Reid...of course I didn't really realize that they do that to Abby every season on NCIS, however at the same time NCIS doesn't really need that character that brings the humanity to the show, because NCIS is a much lighter/humerous show compared to CM. So, I'm not saying they serve the same purpose as far as the dynamic of their perpsective groups, but just that it seemed like a blantant attempt on the networks/PTB's part to recreate a formula that worked for one of their other successful shows to try to make it more appealing/relatable to a mass audience, but I find dark shows about serial killers usually don't last long when they are as direct and dark as CM can be because it's uncomfortable to wath at times (like Profiler - I loved Profiler until they tried to re-vamp it and make it lighter hearted because it totally messed up the chi of the show...and Ally Walker jumped ship).
And a part of me feels I should like Garcia more because she is the geeky tec girl who is fabulous and dates an adorably geeky Xander doppleganger, but I don't know. I feel like JJ could also be considered the one who brings, well brought, the humanity to the group despite being in the thick of it with them. she's not a profiler. She's the one who connects to the people who aren't psychopaths. I guess that's one reason they saw her as expendiable to the show since they don't really need two people serving that purose.
And you do have a point that they do like to torture Reid by putting him in danger.
HotchStare - Yes. For a character who can be rather bland or seen as bland -- he's oddly appealing. Though I thought it was rather gratuitous that they killed off his wife or ex-wife.
Reply
And I don't care for S1 CM because I couldn't stand Elle.
Reply
Exactly -- that's what makes it fun to talk about. Who needs concrete truths like math and science.*Phf*
And I really didn't like Elle either. As far as Haley...I do appreciate the fact that they went for it because it was definitly a risk writing wise and I will say I was glued to the screen the whole episode...but I don't know. It was just so horrible...
And I haven't seen "Princess Bride" in forever. Though apparently ROUS are real! My mom was watching something and they had something on it about this jumbo rats the size of dogs.
Reply
"100" as an episode was a work of brilliance. One of the tensest hours of television I've ever seen. That's another reason I love CM, the quality to it. The pacing, direction, lighting, music, all of it contributes in some qualitative way to the episode. They have one of the best music directors I've heard on a television show, I was reminded of that when rewatching "Revelations" (the Reid gets kidnapped episode from S2) and the opening sequence as the team shows up at Tobias Henkel's shack to the background music of the Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil," set a brilliant tense tone for the rest of the episode.
We have jumbo rats the size of cats, but they are actually nutria. Some people eat them. I do not.
Edited for spelling fail.
Reply
I get that -- I mean you see how stumbly and "butbutbut" I get when defending myEames...so I get it. But I also like talking about this stuff and hearing how/why (there has to be why) other people see these same characters differently because we all place parts of ourselves in them when we write them and the fact that we want to write them at all I think would speak to the fact that we identify with these characters for reason or another, though what this is may be completely different.
For instance, I was thinking and I think why the Haley thing bothered me is because I come from a single mother home and Haley has essentialy been a single mom (Hotch even admits as much in that episode) and I just would have been so utterly lost without my mom growing up and I think I'm just imagining a little too much what Jack would be going through. Though Hotch has put more considerable effort than my dad would but that's a different conversation.
I do really like that episode "Revelations" -- who knew Dawson could actually act.
And I don't eat anything with 4 legs so, no jumbo rats for me, please.
Reply
But mostly, I was happy just loving CM the same way I love Bones and NCIS, no need to write more stories. I believe my desire to write in it is partly because the fandom is filled with crappy writers, and I want to write something I would want to read, and partly because Reid is a fascinating character to me, and I guess I want to get to know my Reid better. Through his hair.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment